mjm@ahimsa.intel.COM (Marjorie Panditji) (04/24/91)
Hillel posts this quote and asks for reactions: > Becky Thompson, a sociology and women's studies professor, in a > teaching manual distributed by the American Sociological Association > writes: "I begin my course with the basic principle that in a racist, > classist and sexist society we have all swallowed oppressive ways of > being, whether intentionally or not. Specifically, this means that it > is not open to debate whether a white student is racist or a male > student is sexist. He/she simply is." -- From the April issue of > "Forbes" I would agree with this quote. I think that as I white, I am racist at some times. I have to consciously work against this subconscious bias. As a woman, I am sexist at some times. I have seen instances in myself where racist or sexist attitudes came out in my actions, and sometimes I have not seen them myself, but had others point them out to me. I think that we all are sexist and racist to some degree. I believe that we should work proactively to fight against these stereotypes. Did anyone ever see that movie where a writer poses as a Jew? (forgot the name, it was made in the 30s or 40s, I think) It has some of the same parallels in it. He comments that it is not just the "bad people" who discriminate against Jews. I can only remember a couple incidents from the movie. In one, child was accused of being a Jew. The mother comforted her son and said, no, it wasn't true, without ever questioning the underlying concept that being a Jew was somehow inferior. The character in the movie pointed out that not questioning this concept was some evidence of the person's biases. In another scene, someone comments that they wish they were not a Jew. Again, this buys into the assumption that being a Jew is not desireable. I know I am not doing justice to this movie at all, but if someone can post the name of it, I would recommend it. Not all the parallels hold to racist and sexist attitudes, but overall it is a very good analogy. I also would suggest classes in cross-cultural communication. Until you have experienced some of your own racist/sexist stereotypes, you will never believe that you are in any way racist/sexist. But just because we may have some of these stereotypes does not mean that we cannot overcome them, we just should be aware of them and work to counter them. -- Marjorie Panditji, Intel Corporation, (503) 696-2197 mjm@ahimsa.intel.com -or- uunet!intelhf!ahimsa!mjm
jgh1@unix.cis.pitt.edu (John G. Hardie) (04/25/91)
In article <m0jVYI7-00006sC@intelhf.hf.intel.com> mjm@ahimsa.intel.COM (Marjorie Panditji) writes: >Hillel posts this quote and asks for reactions: > [...] >> being, whether intentionally or not. Specifically, this means that it >> is not open to debate whether a white student is racist or a male >> student is sexist. He/she simply is." -- From the April issue of >> "Forbes" > >I would agree with this quote. I think that as I white, I am racist [...] > >I think that we all are sexist and racist to some degree. I believe > [...] >-- >Marjorie Panditji, Intel Corporation, (503) 696-2197 >mjm@ahimsa.intel.com -or- uunet!intelhf!ahimsa!mjm Hi, I agree with you that all of us have biases. I don't think that this is the issue however. I have heard comments like the original quote in several discussions about racism/sexism and it is often followed by the assertion that whites are inherently racist, and males are inherently sexist, but blacks - being blacks - cannot be racist. Similarly for women - sexism is inherently male - you simply cannot have a sexist woman. [I believe the rationale for this is that the oppressed group lacks power, and racism/sexism can only be practiced by the opressing group. I don't agree with this, but...] I believe that the last time I saw this argument was somewhere in soc.women or soc.men. You might search these groups if you're interested. I got fed up with both of those groups and no longer read them. John -- jgh1@unix.cis.pitt.edu ... A wild display of pig farmers gone berserk
hjn@bcsfse.boeing.com (Henry Noble) (04/26/91)
|> Did anyone ever see that movie where a writer poses as a Jew? (forgot |> the name, it was made in the 30s or 40s, I think) It has some of the |> same parallels in it. He comments that it is not just the "bad |> people" who discriminate against Jews. The movie was called "Gentleman's Agreement" and starred Gregory Peck. I'd like to see it again. It's a s you described it. Maybe it's on video.... I agree that classes and readings (and films) are good at combatting racism, anti-Semitism and sexism, but nothing, IMHO, beats confrontation on-the-spot. Henry Noble hjn@bcsfse.boeing.com ..uunet!bcstec!bcsfse!hjn The opinions expressed are my own and (probably) not those of my employer.
cr2r+@andrew.cmu.EDU ("Christian M. Restifo") (04/29/91)
> Excerpts from netnews.soc.feminism: 24-Apr-91 racism/sexism in all of us > Marjorie Panditji@ahimsa (2474) > Hillel posts this quote and asks for reactions: > > Becky Thompson, a sociology and women's studies professor, in a > > teaching manual distributed by the American Sociological Association > > writes: "I begin my course with the basic principle that in a racist, > > classist and sexist society we have all swallowed oppressive ways of > > being, whether intentionally or not. Specifically, this means that it > > is not open to debate whether a white student is racist or a male > > student is sexist. He/she simply is." -- From the April issue of > > "Forbes" > I would agree with this quote. I think that as I white, I am racist > at some times. I have to consciously work against this subconscious > bias. As a woman, I am sexist at some times. I have seen instances > in myself where racist or sexist attitudes came out in my actions, and > sometimes I have not seen them myself, but had others point them out > to me. I have never, nor will I ever, call myself sexist, racist, etc. Before you flame away as to why I am one, please listen. I am not saying that I don't exhibit racist, sexist, etc. views/actions/beliefs. Many times I have said something (like a joke) that appeared as nothing more than pure humor to me. Yet, when the joke got back to me (they always seem to circle around, you know) in the form of someone else telling it to yet another person, I stop and think, "Did I actually say that?" Thus, I do not overtly walk around doing certain things, but my ingrained behavior would indicate otherwise. Where is this leading? The reason why many people don't like to refer to themselves as racist, etc. is that it would make them feel extremely bad. We all want to feel good about ourselves. We say we are not racist/sexist/etc. for two reasons: 1) We soothe our own ego. We feel that we are "good" because we don't do something "evil." 2) It's the socially acceptable thing to do. That's why we'll say we're not sexist, turn around, and call a 40 year old single woman a "dyke." I believe Becky Thompson's argument is actually self-destructive. For example, let's say you wanted to lead some discussion group concerning sexism. You start off with the shocker, "We're all sexist." Right then and there, you've effectively shut the minds of people like me (the majority of people--those who may exhibit sexist behavior, but don't acknowledge it). You know for a fact, that many men (I'm assuming a regular representation of the whole society) aren't going to listen because no one likes to be lectured to about how "bad" or "evil" they are. I don't know what to propose as an alternative. I'm not a sociologist, psychologist, feminist, etc. The only thing I can think of is to somehow show (without alienating people) how forms of discrimination are set up (recognizing differences and identifying certain people as "others"; projecting problems, stereotypes, social woes onto them; and creating the division of "us" versus "them"), how they become engrained into society, and then how subtle actions, phrases, etc. are sexist/racist/whatever. If you let me "learn" on my own, I'm much more likely to change than if you "indoctrinate" me. Chris Restifo cr2r@andrew.cmu.edu ******************************************************************************* LONG LIVE "JOLLY J AND HER MIGHTY HAMMER" "Ignore stupid people. They'll go away if you do. And if it doesn't work once, do it again!" -- Jeff G. Barnes Disclaimer: One who disclaims. And dis ting don't claim any ting. *******************************************************************************
obermark@symcom (Jon Obermark) (05/01/91)
In article <wc67ZjG00awWIQrmFk@andrew.cmu.edu> cr2r+@andrew.cmu.EDU ("Christian M. Restifo") writes: >> Excerpts from netnews.soc.feminism: 24-Apr-91 racism/sexism in all of us >> Marjorie Panditji@ahimsa (2474) > >> Hillel posts this quote and asks for reactions: > >> > Becky Thompson, a sociology and women's studies professor, in a >> > teaching manual distributed by the American Sociological Association >> > writes: "I begin my course with the basic principle that in a racist, >> > classist and sexist society we have all swallowed oppressive ways of >> > being, whether intentionally or not. Specifically, this means that it >> > is not open to debate whether a white student is racist or a male >> > student is sexist. He/she simply is." -- From the April issue of >> > "Forbes" [Original agreement with quote deleted] > >I have never, nor will I ever, call myself sexist, racist, etc. >Before you flame away as to why I am one, please listen. I am not >saying that I don't exhibit racist, sexist, etc. >views/actions/beliefs. Many times I have said something (like a joke) [Example omitted of sexist action without conciously sexist motive] > >Where is this leading? The reason why many people don't like to refer >to themselves as racist, etc. is that it would make them feel >extremely bad. We all want to feel good about ourselves. We say we >are not racist/sexist/etc. for two reasons: 1) We soothe our own ego. >We feel that we are "good" because we don't do something "evil." 2) >It's the socially acceptable thing to do. That's why we'll say we're >not sexist, turn around, and call a 40 year old single woman a "dyke." But neither of these motives is honest, why should we all help you lie to yourself? > >I believe Becky Thompson's argument is actually self-destructive. For >example, let's say you wanted to lead some discussion group concerning >sexism. You start off with the shocker, "We're all sexist." Right >then and there, you've effectively shut the minds of people like me >(the majority of people--those who may exhibit sexist behavior, but >don't acknowledge it). You know for a fact, that many men (I'm >assuming a regular representation of the whole society) aren't going >to listen because no one likes to be lectured to about how "bad" or >"evil" they are. Yes, but (* Recovery Rhetoric Warning *) to address a problem one must at some point conciously acknowledge it. Starting with the assumption that the audience is willing to do that can, if done correctly, encourage them in their attempt to do it. Some folks can pull this off well and really make change by directly confronting the problem. If, on the other hand, the audience is not really willing, what good does molly-coddling them do? For some folks the only way to address the issue is head-on. I have seen men fight tooth and nail with a presenter working from this assumption and then (much, much) later, after working through their defensive anger, really effectively address this stuff. The presenter respected his anger enough to deal with it, but did not play into his defensiveness. It made all the rest of us really look at what was going on. > >I don't know what to propose as an alternative. I'm not a DON'T, those who wish to address these things will find their own methods and if you aren't going to implement your suggestions, they will only be found insulting. If you aren't working here, don't supervise. >sociologist, psychologist, feminist, etc. The only thing I can think >of is to somehow show (without alienating people) how forms of >discrimination are set up (recognizing differences and identifying >certain people as "others"; projecting problems, stereotypes, social >woes onto them; and creating the division of "us" versus "them"), how >they become engrained into society, and then how subtle actions, >phrases, etc. are sexist/racist/whatever. If you let me "learn" on my >own, I'm much more likely to change than if you "indoctrinate" me. This may be true of you, but it is false of most who would say it. People tend not to change until they are made suitably uncomfortable in their current position. Denial is too "comfortable". True, missionary zeal is annoying, and the expectation of total and immediate change is unfair, but privilege is so seductive (and so effectively conforming), that few of us, left to our own devices, would continue to try to change at all if the subject were dropped completely. >Chris Restifo [disclaimer deleted] Jay Obermark These opinions are obviously my own.
jym@mica.berkeley.edu (Jym Dyer) (05/01/91)
> I think that as I white, I am racist at some times. I have > to consciously work against this subconscious bias. ___ __ You are speaking for yourself. > I think that we all are sexist and racist to some degree. ___ __ And now you aren't. You really can't say what "we all" _ are like, because you have to take individual variation into account. ___ __ Let me give an example, but first a tad of developmental _ psychology: a scientist named Piaget discovered that children's minds go through stages of development. At one of these stages, the mind simply cannot accept a contradiction. Hold that thought . . . ___ __ Another idea in developmental psychology has to do with _ memory and learning: the "schemata" model. The idea is that incoming data has to be organized to fit in with the data that's in there already. One consequence of this is that information learned early ends up supporting the "weight" of all the related information that gets learned later. ___ __ Onward to the example: Imagine a child, a white male child, _ in fact, who was fed racist and sexist information when at the developmental stage where his mind can't handle any contradictions. Imagine that that child had had first-hand positive experience with members of the races and sexes, and that those experiences directly contradicted the information. Hmmmm . . . ___ __ Now suppose that, instead of his mind accepting "black people _ are bad" and "boys are better than girls" at that early age, it instead accepted "people who say `black people are bad' are wrong" and "people who say `boys are better than girls' are wrong." Now imagine this child growing up, and builds his schemata on those precepts. By luck, a burgeoning civil rights and mainstream feminist movement offer egalitarian principles to rationalize these early beliefs, just in time for the developmental stage where the mind wants these ration- alizations. ___ __ That person is very lucky, because racism and sexism seem very _ unnatural to him. They contradict his schema and his rational processes. The subconscious bias works the other way. ___ __ I know this, because that's what happened to me. <_Jym_>
farmerl@handel.cs.colostate.EDU (lisa ann farmer) (05/08/91)
>>sociologist, psychologist, feminist, etc. The only thing I can think >>of is to somehow show (without alienating people) how forms of >>discrimination are set up (recognizing differences and identifying >>certain people as "others"; projecting problems, stereotypes, social >>woes onto them; and creating the division of "us" versus "them"), how >>they become engrained into society, and then how subtle actions, >>phrases, etc. are sexist/racist/whatever. If you let me "learn" on my >>own, I'm much more likely to change than if you "indoctrinate" me. In my Women in Science class we watched a filmstrip called "The Tale of O". My class thought this was a good way to bring up the issue. The only problem I saw with it was that most people would put themselves into the role of the one being discriminated against. BTW the filmstrip was showing how it was like to be an O in a world of X's. I think this type of filmstrip could be very beneficial to many people. I am sure it could be found in a library or resource center. It is worth checking out. Lisa farmerl@handel.cs.colostate.edu "If people want to make war they should make a colour war and paint each other's cities up in the night in pinks and greens." Yoko Ono (_Louder than Words_)