NRILEY@BOOTES.UNM.EDU (Natalie Riley Osorio) (05/10/91)
In reference to the ongoing discussion about gender pronouns and the like, I'd like to present my situation. In a recent e-mail discussion with a friend, we were talking about the usage of the titles "woman" and "girl." I admitted to him that at times I feel uncomfortable being called a "woman" (I'm 20) and also in calling other people my age "women" and "men" (although I do). Furthermore, I don't feel belittled by being called a "girl." He wrote the following: > Our society is sexist- wake up and smell the coffee: the pursuit of language > changes in feminism is symbolic- you wish to be recognized as a woman only > in so far as you buy into the idea that some change must be made in this > society. Otherwise society is correct; you are a girl. If you think it and > believe it then you are, and there is no reason to correct those who are > wrong in calling you a woman. But most of all there is no reason to take > away from the efforts of those who deserve that title (or otherwise do NOT > deserve to be characterized as weak, naive, and stupid.) My feeling is that an even bigger problem lies in the stigmatism that apparently exists in being called a "girl," or for that matter, a "woman" as opposed to "womyn," etc. These words should not imply one who is " weak, naive, and stupid " or anything else. It seems to me that part of the reason these words have derrogatory implications is that people are insisting they are derrogatory. I am interested in hearing what other people feel about this. Nat Riley O. NRILEY@BOOTES.UNM.EDU "Many other women have kicked higher, balanced longer, or turned faster. These are poor substitutes for passion" Agnes DeMille ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
jan@oas.olivetti.com (Jan Parcel) (05/14/91)
In article <1991May13.223727.8721@aero.org> NRILEY@BOOTES.UNM.EDU (Natalie Riley Osorio) writes: > My feeling is that an even bigger problem lies in the stigmatism that >apparently exists in being called a "girl," or for that matter, a "woman" >as opposed to "womyn," etc. These words should not imply one who is " weak, >naive, and stupid " or anything else. It seems to me that part of the reason >these words have derrogatory implications is that people are insisting they >are derrogatory. I am interested in hearing what other people feel about this. If there are 20 engineers in an office, say, 10 women and 10 men, and the men are referred to as men, and the women as girls, that is saying "adults" vs. "children" IMHO, in any context where the men are men, the women are women. I'm 39, and got used to being called a woman as I got used to being called Mrs., back when I had a baby... but I've heard 45-year-old men talk about poker with "the boys" and 45-year-old women talking about "girls' night out." So, part of your problem may be that you are sitting on the border. Certainly, if you take the average competence and strength of *all* 'legal' boys and girls, that is, birth to age 18, you come up with less capability on average than would be expected of an adult. Also, "boy" and "girl" have been used as slave or servant terms, mostly referring to adults in jobs which *should* be kids' jobs, or else mechanized. ~~~ jan@orc.olivetti.com or jan@oas.olivetti.com ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ We must worship Universal Consciousness as each of the 5 genders in turn if we wish to be fully open to Yr glory. -- St. Xyphlb of Alpha III
mlm@cs.brown.edu (Moises Lejter) (05/14/91)
In article <1991May13.223727.8721@aero.org> NRILEY@BOOTES.UNM.EDU (Natalie Riley Osorio) writes:
From: NRILEY@BOOTES.UNM.EDU (Natalie Riley Osorio)
Date: 10 May 91 07:00:00 GMT
[...] I admitted to him that at times I feel uncomfortable being
called a "woman" (I'm 20) and also in calling other people my age
"women" and "men" (although I do). Furthermore, I don't feel
belittled by being called a "girl."
To give a similar perspective on the question (backed by some foreign
language info, again), I have a similar problem. I am a little
uncomfortable calling myself or my peers "men" (we're 27, or
thereabouts), but I would have no problem in calling an older man a
"man". The same applies to women - I feel a little uncomfortable
calling women my age "woman", but older women I will call a "woman"
without second thoughts. The issue (at least for me) has to do with
a certain association I have between the words "man" and "woman" and a
certain amount of deference that goes along with them - I see the
older people as deserving such deference, but I don't see people my
age as deserving it (we're still too young...).
The problem, as I see it, is that in English there is no word in
common use that "fits" between "boy" and "man" (or "girl" and
"woman"). A teenager is too old to be a boy/girl, but not old enough
to be a man/woman. "Young man/woman" would probably do it, except
that it's not a common phrase (though grandmothers use it all the
time... :-) (and perhaps that's why)). In Spanish, there is a word
"muchacho/muchacha" which means "young man/woman" (by and large). It
is commonly used to refer to teenagers. They will get offended, however,
if called "ni~no/ni~na" (boy/girl). I always thought it was *because*
a better alternative was available - calling them "boys/girls" could
only mean they were being belittled.
Needless to say, I can picture circumstances in which "boy/girl" would
be used in a clearly derogatory sense, and so would be demeaning.
It's all a matter of figuring out what the speaker meant by them.
Moises
P.S> I'm rapidly approaching the point where I *would* call myself
(and my peers) men/women. A scary thought... :-)
--
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USmail: Moises Lejter, Box 1910 Brown University, Providence RI 02912dawn@ux1.cso.uiuc.edu (Dawn Owens) (05/15/91)
mlm@cs.brown.edu (Moises Lejter) writes: >The problem, as I see it, is that in English there is no word in >common use that "fits" between "boy" and "man" (or "girl" and >"woman"). Actually, there IS a word in common use that fits between "boy" and "man". I bet it is the word you use yourself: "guy". But there is still no word to bridge the gap between childhood and adulthood for females. It seems to me that these are the most commonly used terms: Males Females Childhood Boy Girl Young Adulthood Guy Girl Adulthood Man (or Guy) Woman (or Lady or Girl) It isn't a very parallel system. A female can be called by the childhood name Girl at any age. It is very rare to hear an adult male referred to by the childhood name Boy, except as a racially derogatory term for an adult African American male, or in certain phrases like "old boys' network". I sympathize with the woman who felt awkward calling herself a woman. I felt awkward when I first began calling myself a woman also (at about age 19). It doesn't make things easier that there is no young adult term for females. But I knew it was the correct thing to do. I knew that my peers and I were adult women, not girls, so I persevered through the awkwardness, and in no time (2 weeks or so) I was very comfortable with it. I am 27 now, and I absolutely cringe when someone calls me a girl. Dawn
dhw@iti.org (David H. West) (05/16/91)
In article <49630@ricerca.UUCP> jan@oas.olivetti.com writes: >Also, "boy" >and "girl" have been used as slave or servant terms, mostly referring to >adults in jobs which *should* be kids' jobs, or else mechanized. This criterion would also classify "man" as demeaning. Extract from Webster: 1. man \'man, in compounds .man or m*n\ \'men, in compounds .men or m*n\ n [...] 2a: a liege man : VASSAL 2b: an adult male servant IMO, to attempt to change others' usage of a word because one disapproves of (what one believes to be) its connotations: 1) is ineffective because the targeted meaning is easily transferred by change of usage to another word (remember "isn't that SPECIAL"); 2) exhibits the same kind of naivete' as those Victorians who felt it necessary to refer to the "limbs" of a chair in order to avoid the indelicate connotations of the word "legs"; 3) overlooks the possibility that the would-be censor simply belongs to a different linguistic sub-community than the other parties; 4) is too often accompanied by unwarranted assumptions of ethical asymmetry between the would-be censor and the unwillingly censored. ("I have a right to prescribe your choice of words. Your attempted dissent is merely a camouflage for guilt.") -David West dhw@iti.org
fg7@cunixf.cc.columbia.edu (Farshid Guilak) (05/16/91)
In article <MLM.91May14031426@hector.cs.brown.edu> mlm@cs.brown.edu writes: > >In article <1991May13.223727.8721@aero.org> NRILEY@BOOTES.UNM.EDU (Natalie Riley Osorio) writes: > > From: NRILEY@BOOTES.UNM.EDU (Natalie Riley Osorio) > Date: 10 May 91 07:00:00 GMT > > [...] I admitted to him that at times I feel uncomfortable being > called a "woman" (I'm 20) and also in calling other people my age > "women" and "men" (although I do). Furthermore, I don't feel > belittled by being called a "girl." > >The problem, as I see it, is that in English there is no word in >common use that "fits" between "boy" and "man" (or "girl" and >"woman"). A teenager is too old to be a boy/girl, but not old enough >to be a man/woman. My friends and I had this discussion at work a few years ago. "Guys" is used to refer to the males at work in their mid-twenties, but who would ever use "Gals" or "Dolls"??? We end up using guys to refer to everybody now, i.e., "Do you guys want to go to lunch...", or use "Ladies". It still doesn't sound right to me. Any suggestions? Farsh
farmerl@handel.CS.ColoState.Edu (lisa ann farmer) (05/16/91)
In article <1991May13.223727.8721@aero.org> NRILEY@BOOTES.UNM.EDU (Natalie Riley Osorio) writes: > > My feeling is that an even bigger problem lies in the stigmatism that >apparently exists in being called a "girl," or for that matter, a "woman" >as opposed to "womyn," etc. These words should not imply one who is " weak, >naive, and stupid " or anything else. It seems to me that part of the reason >these words have derrogatory implications is that people are insisting they >are derrogatory. I am interested in hearing what other people feel about this. When I think of a girl I think of someone who is dependent (on parents) for their survival. Granted many college students are being supported financially by their parents but I think that is a different situation. Many societies have rituals for going into womanhood. It is recognized as a step in a person's life. In the US we really don't have a ritual so essentially we never become a woman until we have a child or something. But even my mother calls 40 yr old women girls. I think I like referring to myself and others as women because that implies that one is independent. I am not saying that girls can't be independent but as a rule most children aren't. It is definitely a issue of semantics - I have heard some black women call other women "girl" and it didn't have the same connotation. It was mentioned above that there is a negative feel to girl - just a thought- Think about a young child - when someone says that they are a "cute little boy/girl" the first thing the child says is "I'm not little". I feel it is kind of the same thing. Lisa farmerl@handel.cs.colostate.edu "If people want to make war they should make a colour war and paint each other's cities up in the night in pinks and greens." Yoko Ono (_Louder than Words_)
dsy@psych.toronto.edu (Desiree Sy) (05/18/91)
I can understand some of the ambivalent feelings young women have in being called "women", since as a teenager I felt much the same way (After all, being teenaged means you are sitting on the border btwn adulthood and childhood). However, have you *ever* heard similar thoughts being expressed by young men who are referred to as "men" immediately upon entering the workforce? I haven't. I find this discrepancy (which I observe in myself, too) very disturbing. -desiree
todd@ohsu.edu (Todd Ellner) (05/18/91)
There is one factor in the woman/girl discussion which it might be useful to bring up. That is the issue of the age of the person using the term. As one grows older one's perception of what constitutes an adult of either sex moves upward as well. When I was eighteen eighteen year olds seemed grown up mature adults, sixteen and seventeen year olds slightly less so. Now, some years later, I don't _always feel that way. Surely, when I am seventy years old I will consider thirty year olds a bit young. It was a shock to hear the people I rented a space from for an event referring to my wife and me as a "couple of nice kids". Alas. Todd Ellner Q: What has the study of biology taught you about the Creator, Dr. Haldane? JBS Haldane: I'm not sure, but he seems to be inordiately fond of beetles.
jhenk@hmcvax.claremont.EDU (05/22/91)
I had no idea how deeply this issue ran, or even that it existed until
my ex-SO told me in a rather sensitive moment that she wanted to know if
I thought of her as a "girl" or as a "woman". Suspecting that this was
one of those there's-a-right-answer-here-but-I-don't-have-a-clue-what's-
going-on moments, I admittedly guessed and said "woman". She almost
broke down in tears. Panicked, I waited for some kind of embellishment.
She said she was so glad that someone thought of her as a woman and not
a girl. It was only then that I realized what was happening. Whew. You see,
I always did think of her as someone I respected greatly as an independent
thinker, a doer, someone who cared deeply about many things (me included,
and the feeling was mutual), and incredibly beautiful. BUT I DIDN'T KNOW
THAT SHE WAS WRAPPING THIS ALL UP IN A TERM. Seriously, for all the
terrificness in her, I really think that I could have badly damaged things
if I had given the "wrong" answer.
So, the upshot? If you are going to press this issue, PLEASE make sure
that the person you are talking to understands what you are getting at.
Otherwise you may well be talking apples and oranges. That's dangerous
when feelings are running high.
Just my two cents for what they are worth...
Jim.
internet: jhenk@hmcvax.claremont.edu
bitnet: jhenk@hmcvaxevan@hplabs.hpl.hp.com (Evan Kirshenbaum) (05/22/91)
In article <1991May17.180807.20501@psych.toronto.edu> dsy@psych.toronto.edu (Desiree Sy) writes: > I can understand some of the ambivalent feelings young women have > in being called "women", since as a teenager I felt much the same > way (After all, being teenaged means you are sitting on the > border btwn adulthood and childhood). > > However, have you *ever* heard similar thoughts being expressed > by young men who are referred to as "men" immediately upon > entering the workforce? I haven't. > > I find this discrepancy (which I observe in myself, too) very > disturbing. > I would expect that most males entering the workforce feel extremely uncomfortable being referred to as "men". I know I was (and to some extent still am---I'm 26). I tend to break the world up into People substantially younger than I am People substantially older than I am People substantially my age. The first group I call "boys" and "girls". The second group are "men" and "women". The third group is more problematic. I use "guys" for groups and for individual males, but there is no good word for individual females or for "specifically female groups" (such as sports teams or when using gender to contrast between groups). My father, who also grew up in Chicago, tends to use "gals", but this was never part of my dialect. Up through college, I tended to use "girls". Lately, I find myself using "women" more often. I suppose that this may have something to do with my being more comfortable with being called a "man". Evan Kirshenbaum HP Laboratories 3500 Deer Creek Road, Building 26U Palo Alto, CA 94304 kirshenbaum@hplabs.hp.com (415)857-7572
dank@blacks.jpl.nasa.gov (Dan Kegel) (05/23/91)
dsy@psych.toronto.edu (Desiree Sy) writes: >I can understand some of the ambivalent feelings young women have >in being called "women"... >However, have you *ever* heard similar thoughts being expressed >by young men who are referred to as "men" immediately upon >entering the workforce? I haven't. >I find this discrepancy (which I observe in myself, too) very >disturbing. When I entered the workforce a few years ago, I did feel ambivilent about being called 'man' rather than 'teenager' or 'young man' ('boy' had fallen by the wayside by high school). The feeling is minor, however, to the feeling I get when I compare my looks at 28 with my looks at 21 :-) - Dan Kegel (dank@blacks.jpl.nasa.gov)
hansen@pegasus.att.COM (Tony L Hansen) (05/23/91)
< I can understand some of the ambivalent feelings young women have in < being called "women", since as a teenager I felt much the same way < (After all, being teenaged means you are sitting on the border btwn < adulthood and childhood). < < However, have you *ever* heard similar thoughts being expressed by < young men who are referred to as "men" immediately upon entering the < workforce? I haven't. < < I find this discrepancy (which I observe in myself, too) very < disturbing. I was in my mid to late twenties before I finally felt really comfortable with being called a "man". True, I was married and had a young child, but I still didn't feel much different from being a teenager. In fact, I was particularly fond of the term from Tolkien's Hobbit: "tweenager". And being called "Mr. Hansen" by kids with whom I'm aquainted, and who know my first name, still doesn't feel right. In conversations with my office mate, who is in his late twenties, he too only started feeling comfortable with the term in the last few years. So, it seems that at least some nascent men also feel as uncomfortable with the term as some nascent women feel uncomfortable with that term. Tony Hansen hansen@pegasus.att.com, tony@attmail.com att!pegasus!hansen, attmail!tony
kenm@maccs.dcss.mcmaster.ca ("...Jose") (05/23/91)
In article <1991May17.180807.20501@psych.toronto.edu> dsy@psych.toronto.edu (Desiree Sy) writes: > >I can understand some of the ambivalent feelings young women have >in being called "women", since as a teenager I felt much the same >way (After all, being teenaged means you are sitting on the >border btwn adulthood and childhood). > >However, have you *ever* heard similar thoughts being expressed >by young men who are referred to as "men" immediately upon >entering the workforce? I haven't. So sorry to burst your bubble, but many of us (young men, that is) have a hard time adjusting to the use of "men" and "women" in reference to ourselves and our peers. I don't think of my male friends as "men", but as "guys"... and I will generally refer to my female friends as "girls" (using "guys", if addressing a group of any gender mixture). I make a point of using "women" when I'm able to think before speaking, because I know that many women will find "girl" disrespectful.... but "girl" is usually what I think. It's all a reflection of how one see's oneself, I should think.... and most of my friends and I don't see ourselves as "men", a "man" being something old and adult (we're in our early to late twenties, late in university or early on in the real world). When I am referred to as a "man", it still strikes me as slightly inconguous and occaisionally as almost snide and sacrastic. I'm getting used to it, 'though... and at the same time I'm finding it more and more natural to refer to my peers as "women" and "men". -- ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- ".sig quotes are dippy"|Kenneth C. Moyle kenm@maccs.dcss.mcmaster.ca - Kenneth C. Moyle |Department of Biochemistry MOYLEK@MCMASTER.BITNET |McMaster University ...!uunet!mnetor!maccs!kenm
rivero@dev8g.mdcbbs.com (05/28/91)
Samual Clemens (Mark Twain) had a good solution to the woman/girl question. He always described his wife, Olivia, as "Half girl, half woman", implying a mix of the best of both! ========================================================================== \\\\ Michael Rivero | "I drank WHAT!" | The idea that all men | \ (. rivero@dev8a.mdcbbs | Socrates -------------------avoid children| )> DISCLAIMER::: |-----------|Anyone who does | is an unfair | == "Hey man, I wasn't |Looking4luv|not get 8 hugs a |feminist MYTH!| ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++-------------------+++++++++++++++