khy@deimos.caltech.EDU (Antoine Rashad) (05/08/91)
What ever happened to the issue of clothing? In the 70's no self-respecting feminist would be caught dead wearing a dress or a skirt, but these days lots of self-proclaimed feminists wear them all the time. Is protesting distinct clothing for men and women off the feminist agenda? Or do radical feminists still wear pants exclusively? Do radical feminists look down on feminine-looking women who wear dresses and stockings? Myself, I'm not complaining, because I never liked women in pants and the fact that feminists dressed so badly turned me off feminism. It seems to me that after they softened up on the clothing issue, feminists got more recruits. What are the opinions on this issue these days?
sarahg@ronin.css.itd.umich.edu (Sarah Gray) (05/08/91)
Keywords:In article <1991Apr27.120803.29765@nntp-server.caltech.edu>, khy@deimos.caltech.EDU (Antoine Rashad) writes: |> What ever happened to the issue of clothing? In the 70's no |> self-respecting feminist would be caught dead wearing a dress or a |> skirt, but these days lots of self-proclaimed feminists wear them all |> the time. Is protesting distinct clothing for men and women off the |> feminist agenda? Or do radical feminists still wear pants |> exclusively? Do radical feminists look down on feminine-looking women |> who wear dresses and stockings? Defining who is a radical feminist is obviously a whole other topic, but as someone who is definitely a feminist, I do not feel constricted to wearing pants or to wearing skirts. In terms of distinct clothing for men and for women, clearly men are lagging behind in that they feel constricted to only wearing pants in America. I like having the choice, and it varies by the season. |> Myself, I'm not complaining, because I never liked women in pants and |> the fact that feminists dressed so badly turned me off feminism. It |> seems to me that after they softened up on the clothing issue, |> feminists got more recruits. What are the opinions on this issue |> these days? You never liked women in pants? And you were turned off to feminism by something as petty as that?
chris@psych.toronto.edu (Christine Hitchcock) (05/08/91)
Isn't this a repost from a few weeks ago? In article <1991Apr27.120803.29765@nntp-server.caltech.edu> khy@deimos.caltech.EDU writes: >What ever happened to the issue of clothing? In the 70's no >self-respecting feminist would be caught dead wearing a dress or a >skirt, but these days lots of self-proclaimed feminists wear them all >the time. Is protesting distinct clothing for men and women off the >feminist agenda? Or do radical feminists still wear pants >exclusively? Do radical feminists look down on feminine-looking women >who wear dresses and stockings? I don't consider myself not to be a feminist because I sometimes wear dresses. A lot of the second-wave of feminism seemed to me to start out by confining women's choices (in clothes, in life choices, in sexual orientation, in some cases), but that seems to be mercifully less common now. The trend seems to be not so much imposing new guidelines, but on fighting the old constraints on how women can live their lives. >Myself, I'm not complaining, because I never liked women in pants and >the fact that feminists dressed so badly turned me off feminism. It >seems to me that after they softened up on the clothing issue, >feminists got more recruits. What are the opinions on this issue >these days? It's *possible* that this isn't a sexist view, merely a shallow one. Do you judge movements in general by the dress of their members? You seem to have missed a major feminist complaint, namely that women's attire has traditionally emphasized her sexual attractiveness over comfort and utility. If you judge whether you like a woman by whether she's wearing pants, or is dressed attractively, then perhaps you're also happy being treated like a walking wallet and be judged for your nice sportscar. I'd rather live in a different world than that, and I think *that's* part of what feminism is about. -- Chris Hitchcock, Dept. of Psychology chris@psych.toronto.edu University of Toronto Toronto, Ontario UseNet: I only read it for the CANADA M5S 1A1 .signatures
farmerl@handel.cs.colostate.EDU (lisa ann farmer) (05/09/91)
In article <1991Apr27.120803.29765@nntp-server.caltech.edu> khy@deimos.caltech.EDU writes: >What ever happened to the issue of clothing? In the 70's no >self-respecting feminist would be caught dead wearing a dress or a >skirt, but these days lots of self-proclaimed feminists wear them all >the time. Is protesting distinct clothing for men and women off the >feminist agenda? Or do radical feminists still wear pants >exclusively? Do radical feminists look down on feminine-looking women >who wear dresses and stockings? The reason I wear skirts is because they are comfortable. I also thik that men should be able to wear skirts. When I go on an interview I will wear clothes that I don't normally wear(don't we all). One requirement of the skirts I wear though is that I be able to ride my bike in them! >Myself, I'm not complaining, because I never liked women in pants and >the fact that feminists dressed so badly turned me off feminism. It Why would what someone wore affect your perception of feminism? Are you saying that you weren't attracted to these women so you weren't attracted to feminism? Most women and men at my university wear pants, so if they dress badly and wear pants then they are a feminist? (I don't mean to be so catty but I just can't believe that someone meant this...) >seems to me that after they softened up on the clothing issue, >feminists got more recruits. What are the opinions on this issue >these days? Sororities have pretty strict clothing rules but people still join them, probably because clothing is a high priority. There are many more important issues than clothing (i.e. wife abuse, rape, education, etc.) and that is why I think that feminists are no longer putting as much importance on clothing. I've done my share of venting... Lisa farmerl@handel.cs.colostate.edu "If people want to make war they should make a colour war and paint each other's cities up in the night in pinks and greens." Yoko Ono (_Louder than Words_)
markh@csd4.csd.uwm.edu (Mark William Hopkins) (05/11/91)
In article <14798@ccncsu.ColoState.EDU> lisa ann farmer <farmerl@handel.cs.colostate.EDU> writes: >The reason I wear skirts is because they are comfortable. I also thik >that men should be able to wear skirts. When I go on an interview I >will wear clothes that I don't normally wear(don't we all). One >requirement of the skirts I wear though is that I be able to ride my >bike in them! Good God! That short?! >:) A skirt might not be a bad idea, but no it's NOT comfortable. It makes you feel like your pants have fallen off and you're constantly looking down to see if they're still on only to find that you're not wearing pants, but are wearing a skirt! Besides you wouldn't want to see me in a short skirt. I work out. I may turn too many heads. I'm shy. I blush easily. You'll faint. >Why would what someone wore affect your perception of feminism? Clothing is dictated by culture. Skirts come from the Dark Age*, (like business suits). The Dark Age is when all women were merely sex-slaves of men to be kept in line with the whip and kept in the kitchen. That's why they wore skirts... The skirt means this. It should be abhorred at all costs. Burn them! Arrr!! ------------------------------------------------------------ * The Dark Age is the era of pre-civilized society that ended in 1964 when humans first became conscious and lucid, before which everyone was either a dogmatic ideologue, a religious fanatic blinded by their local cult or a slave.
rivero@dev8a.mdcbbs.com (05/13/91)
In article <1991May8.133550.14685@psych.toronto.edu>, chris@psych.toronto.edu (Christine Hitchcock) writes: > > > It's *possible* that this isn't a sexist view, merely a shallow one. Do > you judge movements in general by the dress of their members? > Call me shallow, but I tend to avoid the guys with the Swastikas(sp) on their sleeves. :-) > You seem to have missed a major feminist complaint, namely that women's > attire has traditionally emphasized her sexual attractiveness over > comfort and utility. I agree, and I argue (in other posts) that not only has this imposed certain unfair standards of worth on women, but it has pre-conditioned men to respond to womens clothing instead of to the women. As to "utility" in clothing, I have a fondness for flight suits with zippered pockets ( and if you've ever flown with me, you'll know WHY!:-<) and prefer to wear them unless a clients dress code deems otherwise. IMHO This is a nice practical garment for either sex. > If you judge whether you like a woman by whether > she's wearing pants, or is dressed attractively, Wearing pants, or dressed ATTRACTIVELY?!?!?!?!?!?!? This implies a judgement on your part that women in pants cannot be attractive. Let us not, in our haste to remove old prejudices, invent new ones! > then perhaps you're also > happy being treated like a walking wallet and be judged for your nice > sportscar. > I drive an economy car, but the wallet is in GREAT shape. You can see it bulging inside my flight suit pocket. :-) Mike ========================================================================== \\\\ Michael Rivero | "I drank WHAT!" | "THIS PORTION OF SIG | \ (. rivero@dev8a.mdcbbs | Socrates ------------------- UNDER | )> DISCLAIMER::: |-----------| | CONSTRUCTION | == "Hey man, I wasn't | | | (pardon our | ---/ even here then!" | | | white-out) | ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++-------------------+++++++++++++++
melanie@director.beckman.uiuc.edu (Melanie Anderson) (05/15/91)
markh@csd4.csd.uwm.edu (Mark William Hopkins) writes: >In article <14798@ccncsu.ColoState.EDU> lisa ann farmer <farmerl@handel.cs.colostate.EDU> writes: >>The reason I wear skirts is because they are comfortable. I also thik >>that men should be able to wear skirts. When I go on an interview I >>will wear clothes that I don't normally wear(don't we all). One >>requirement of the skirts I wear though is that I be able to ride my >>bike in them! >Good God! That short?! >:) that full. a short skirt will only ride up (to the enjoyment/amusement/embarassment of those around you ;-)) full skirts can be safety-pinned shut. i ride a "boy's" bike, btw, therefore i have to pin. >A skirt might not be a bad idea, but no it's NOT comfortable. It makes >you feel like your pants have fallen off and you're constantly looking >down to see if they're still on only to find that you're not wearing >pants, but are wearing a skirt! men just have no clue as to what they're missing. big full, comfy baggy cotton skirts are just the greatest in the summer. much more comfy than jeans. poster mustn't live in a hot, humid part of the country, or must not venture out much in the heat if poster does. skirts are much cooler, much more comfortable, they don't bind, or creep, or pinch your butt like pants can. you don't have to wear stockings in the summer, either, therefore you can get a real nice breeze cooling you off too. can't get that with pants! and besides, they're easier to iron. ya don't have to crease a skirt. >Besides you wouldn't want to see me in a short skirt. I work out. I may turn >too many heads. I'm shy. I blush easily. You'll faint. big, hairy man-legs in a little black mini yum! ;-} -- Melanie Anderson msa@uiuc.edu Beckman Institute PHMETR::MELANIE University of Illinois 217/244-1079 ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- Of all the things I've lost, I miss my mind the most. -----------------------------------------------------------------------------
g-patena%steer@ucselx.sdsu.EDU ("Kevin M. Savetz Esq.") (05/29/91)
In article <1991May14.192001.20125@ux1.cso.uiuc.edu> melanie@director.beckman.uiuc.edu (Melanie Anderson) writes: >markh@csd4.csd.uwm.edu (Mark William Hopkins) writes: >>In article <14798@ccncsu.ColoState.EDU> lisa ann farmer <farmerl@handel.cs.colostate.EDU> writes: >>>The reason I wear skirts is because they are comfortable. I also think >>>that men should be able to wear skirts. [Stuff deleted...] Absolutely. I'm male, and I have and do occasionally wear a skirt. Most people seem to take it in stride or have a positive attitide toward it. It's rare for a male to be seen wearing a skirt, and I've gotten interesting glances from people! ;-) Basically, I think that a lot of the breaking-down between males and females is at the inter-personal level -- when we set minute restrictions as to "this is what women do" / "this is what men do" it carries over and can lead to resentment. I try to break that down as best I can by showing that it is not wrong for a guy to wear a skirt. Make people question their soceitially- ingrained ideas of what is masculine and what is feminine. >>A skirt might not be a bad idea, but no it's NOT comfortable. It makes >>you feel like your pants have fallen off and you're constantly looking >>down to see if they're still on only to find that you're not wearing >>pants, but are wearing a skirt! This is subjective, eh? Wearing a skirt feels wonderful, 'specially after years and years of being confined to icky pants. Clothes are self-expression, and I don't best express myself my wearing jeans day after day. Although that is what i am _expected_ to do. >men just have no clue as to what they're missing. big full, comfy baggy >cotton skirts are just the greatest in the summer. much more comfy than >jeans. =-) I gave a speech for a class about this. Of course, I wore a skirt while doing it. People were very positive about it. However, I doubt soceity as a whole would be as open.. I live in a small college town -- a place where people are generally very open to new ideas and willing to listen to others. Any commenmts on any of this? _____________________________________________________________ KEVIN M. SAVETZ Bitnet: waffle@euclid.humboldt.edu