NRILEY@BOOTES.UNM.EDU (Natalie Riley Osorio) (05/22/91)
I appreciate all the responses about my question, and since the discussion have become a lot more comfortable (I've also become quite sensitised to the tremendous amount of people who use the term "girl" for a woman). I guess my discomfort was basically a reluctance to lose my youth, but that issue is covered when I perceive myself as a young woman. And all in all, if the choice is between being perceived as someone who is immature/naive and someone who is competent/mature, then I'd much rather take the latter. But now I have another question regarding the usage of "woman" and "girl." At what point (or what age) does one regard a female a woman, and not a girl? I've heard people say that puberty is the pivotal point. But, I find that a weak argument since females go through puberty at vastly different ages (I know one woman who first menstruated at age 9, and another at age 16....) Furthermore, that isn't all that constitutes maturity. So, what is the reference point? Nat NRILEY@BOOTES.UNM.EDU (Natalie Riley Osorio) "Many other women have kicked higher, balanced longer, or turned faster. These are poor substitutes for passion." Agnes DeMille ______________________________________________________________________________
NRILEY@BOOTES.UNM.EDU (Natalie Riley Osorio) (05/22/91)
I appreciate the feed-back on the issue of using the terms "woman" and "girl." Now, my next question, which I'll address to those who are ardent about using "woman" for adult females, is at what age do you start calling a girl a woman? I've heard people say that puberty is the relative indicator. But isn't that too large of a gap? I've heard of females who start menstruating at age 9, and others as late as 16 or 17. So, I think that that argument is questionable. Nat Riley O. (NRILEY@BOOTES.UNM.EDU) "Many other women have kicked higher, balanced longer, or turned faster. These are poor substitutes for passion." Agnes DeMille
DOCTORJ@SLACVM.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU (Jon J Thaler) (05/22/91)
In article <9105211741.AA02780@ariel.unm.edu>, NRILEY@BOOTES.UNM.EDU (Natalie Riley Osorio) says: > > But now I have another question regarding the usage of "woman" and > "girl." At what point (or what age) does one regard a female a woman, > and not a girl? I've heard people say that puberty is the pivotal point. > But, I find that a weak argument since females go through puberty at > vastly different ages (I know one woman who first menstruated at age 9, > and another at age 16....) Furthermore, that isn't all that constitutes > maturity. So, what is the reference point? I don't think this question has a clear answer. There is no abrupt transition between childhood and adulthood. (Sexual maturity is only one of many factors.) I have a nineteen year old daughter, and have been very aware of her changing relationship to the world (and to me) over the entire course of her life. If one defines adulthood as self-sufficiency, then she is an adult (I was going to say not quite adult but changed my mind while trying to think of reasons why not.) I cannot pinpoint a specific time when she changed from "girl" to "woman." This question can equally be asked of the boy/man transition with, I suspect, similar answers. I'll know better in six years when my son is nineteen. I suspect that the sensitivity that women have about being called "girl" arises from its use by some men to denigrate all women. For some men *ALL* women are girls, even when they are 50 years old. This has little to do with the question Osario is asking here.
farmerl@handel.CS.ColoState.Edu (lisa ann farmer) (05/26/91)
In article <9105211741.AA02780@ariel.unm.edu> NRILEY@BOOTES.UNM.EDU (Natalie Riley Osorio) writes: > > But now I have another question regarding the usage of "woman" and >"girl." At what point (or what age) does one regard a female a woman, >and not a girl? I've heard people say that puberty is the pivotal point. >But, I find that a weak argument since females go through puberty at >vastly different ages (I know one woman who first menstruated at age 9, >and another at age 16....) Furthermore, that isn't all that constitutes >maturity. So, what is the reference point? > If I question whether a person is a woman or girl, I will usually use woman. Generally, if the person is in elementary or middle school I will use girl. It depends on what context I am using the word also - if I am referring to a single person, I make a judgement call depending upon what context I knew of this person,etc. If I am referring for example to females in high school, I most likely will say girls if referring to a group. The safest term to use when in doubt is female. I think it is safer to call someone who doesn't think they are a woman a woman rather than call someone who believes they are woman a girl. I still stutter when I use "girl" because I can't decide as quick as I talk sometimes.Hope this helps. Lisa farmerl@handel.cs.colostate.edu "If people want to make war they should make a colour war and paint each other's cities up in the night in pinks and greens." Yoko Ono (_Louder than Words_)
"rivero@dev8g.mdcbbs.com"@mdcbbs.COM (06/01/91)
>From: rivero@dev8g.mdcbbs.com Date: 28 May 91 14:14:21 GMT References: <9105211741.AA02780@ariel.unm.edu> Organization: McDonnell Douglas M&E, Cypress CA Nntp-Posting-Host: dev8n Nntp-Posting-User: marr Lines: 34 In article <9105211741.AA02780@ariel.unm.edu>, NRILEY@BOOTES.UNM.EDU (Natalie Riley Osorio) writes: > > I appreciate all the responses about my question, and since the > discussion have become a lot more comfortable (I've also become quite > sensitised to the tremendous amount of people who use the term "girl" > for a woman). I guess my discomfort was basically a reluctance to > lose my youth, but that issue is covered when I perceive myself as a > young woman. And all in all, if the choice is between being perceived > as someone who is immature/naive and someone who is competent/mature, > then I'd much rather take the latter. I think it is important to add a small footnote here. Up until this century, the average lifespan was not that long. It is a sobering thought that when Mozart was my age, he had been dead for 7 years. :-) Old people, if they weren't dead, were usually of ill health. Therefore, our society evolved to prize youth, as it related to a direct assesment of ones health and value as a spouse. And, at a deeper instinctive level, males tend to be more attracted to women still in their childbearing years. Obviously, with modern medicine able to extend lifespan and childbearing years, the "Young" look has far less real meaning these days, although that hasn't stopped the cosmetics companies from exploiting these ancient biases. Mike ========================================================================== \\\\ Michael Rivero | "I drank WHAT!" | The idea that all men | \ (. rivero@dev8a.mdcbbs | Socrates -------------------avoid children| )> DISCLAIMER::: |-----------|Anyone who does | is an unfair | == "Hey man, I wasn't |Looking4luv|not get 8 hugs a |feminist MYTH!| ---/ even here then!" |Settle4sex!|day is in trouble| | ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++-------------------+++++++++++++++