al885@cwns9.ins.cwru.edu (Gerard Pinzone a.k.a. Ataru Moroboshi) (06/05/91)
In article <1991May29.182720.349@MDI.COM>, gannon@MDI.COM (Alden Gannon) says: >Based on my experiences, and those of many other men, men do not feel >oppressed by women per se. In fact, oppression is prehaps too strong a term. >Men feel *disadvantaged* in at least the following areas in society: > >1. The draft (this one is more like oppression). >2. Parental choice (Women have it, men don't). >3. Alimony, child support, and custody. >4. Rape and domestic abuse law. >5. Affirmative Action for only women and minorities. >6. Hate crimes against gay men (this one *is* oppression). [...stuff deleted...] >If men hold the power, where did I get my six points? Why is it in the >interests of men to create AA, or sexist abuse laws? Men do *not* hold >sovereignty (in the Rouseauian sense). It is held by powerful voting >constituencies; one of which is NOW. I'm not going to disagree with you, also, I read your later message and I will not dispute the fact that voting-wise, women can hold more power. However, the accepted view is that the white-male is in charge of the world. Now while being on top has its advantages, you do end up with some problems....some of those you have mentioned. This is a characteristic of being at "the top of the heap". Just like the good 'ol USA can't bomb smaller countries that terrorize us and our citizens, men will not ususally be take seriously when associated with discrimination. There is another edge to this sword, a minority will never pull itself out of its class until it stops acting like one. This is a good reason why orientals are making it in this society rather than African-americans, etc... Orientals never blame others for their problems whether they have truly been put down or not. Instead, they take the responsibility for their actions and have become part of the "upper classes".... =========Gerard Pinzone=======================gpinzone@george.poly.edu========= _______ ________ ________ Just on the border of your waking mind / ___/ / _____/ / __ / There lies another time / ___/ / /____ / __ / Where darkness and light are one /______/ /_______/ /__/ /__/ And as you tread the halls of sanity East Coast Anime You feel so glad to be unable to go beyond ELO: "Prologue" -=- Daicon IV I have a message from another time...
oneil@zeus.unomaha.edu (Truth or Dare?) (06/06/91)
In article <9106032330.AA00815@cwns9.INS.CWRU.Edu>, al885@cwns9.ins.cwru.edu (Gerard Pinzone a.k.a. Ataru Moroboshi) writes: > There is another edge to this sword, a minority will never pull itself > out of its class until it stops acting like one. This is a good reason > why orientals are making it in this society rather than African-americans, > etc... Orientals never > blame others for their problems whether they have truly been put > down or not. Instead, they take the responsibility for their actions > and have become part of the "upper classes".... Wait a minute. Wait just a minute. The idea that "Orientals are making it in this society" is quite a myth, fueled by the fact that a lot of Asian-Americans /are/ doing very well, at least academically. But, let's not blithely LUMP all Asian-Americans into that group. To be quite truthful, there are a lot of Asian Americans in this country who are /not/ making it and who feel very downtrodden by this stereotype. You need to keep in mind that a lot of those folks who are making it are from families who were affluent to begin with. The Asian-American populace is made up of more than the Japanese. There are people from the Hmong, Vietnamese, Cambodians and others who are NOT doing well and who would resent your allegation. -- ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Sharon Lindsey O'Neil "I could be happy/I could be quite naive/ Bitnet: oneil@unomai1 It's only me and my shadow/Happy in our Internet: oneil@zeus.unomaha.edu make believe/Soon." -- Tears for Fears ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
jfh@rpp386.cactus.org (John F Haugh II) (06/11/91)
In article <15849.284d767d@zeus.unomaha.edu>, oneil@zeus.unomaha.edu (Truth or Dare?) writes: > Wait a minute. Wait just a minute. The idea that "Orientals > are making it in this society" is quite a myth, fueled by the fact > that a lot of Asian-Americans /are/ doing very well, at least > academically. But, let's not blithely LUMP all Asian-Americans > into that group. To be quite truthful, there are a lot of Asian > Americans in this country who are /not/ making it and who feel > very downtrodden by this stereotype. There are about as many whites below the poverty line as there are blacks in the entire population. This is one of the reasons anti-AA people give as an objection. The whole notion that "whites" or "Asians" or whatever are at the top of some mythical heap is absolute CRAP. However, the typical Asian in this country is doing better than the average citizen. This isn't "quite a myth" any more than the success the average Jew is enjoying. You are free to review the census data for these population groups if you have any questions.
oneil@zeus.unomaha.edu (Truth or Dare?) (06/11/91)
In article <9106101928.AA17594@greenber.austin.ibm.com>, jfh@rpp386.cactus.org (John F Haugh II) writes: [Deleted: I argue that it is a fallacy that Asian Americans are the "model minority" -- just because many Asian Americans are succeeding does not mean that all Asian Americans are enjoying scholastic and financial success.] > There are about as many whites below the poverty line as there are > blacks in the entire population. This is one of the reasons anti-AA > people give as an objection. The whole notion that "whites" or > "Asians" or whatever are at the top of some mythical heap is absolute > CRAP. > > However, the typical Asian in this country is doing better than the > average citizen. This isn't "quite a myth" any more than the success > the average Jew is enjoying. You are free to review the census data > for these population groups if you have any questions. Given that only 12% of the US population is African American, I must concede that you are correct. There are more whites below the poverty level than there are blacks in the entire population. But to say that eliminates the need for AA is jumping the gun -- it is a LOT easier for a white male to succeed in this country than for a black, Asian, or a woman. A black male has a better chance of getting shot or getting sent to jail than he does of succeeding financially. I think that there's got to be a reason for this -- and it is NOT inherent. I believe that cultural genocide, stereotype, and institutional racism (and sexism, in the case of women) make it easier for white males to succeed. Here we go again, folx... [Indeed. Followups to this topic will be restricted, as AA pro/con arguments of this type are as inflammatory as abortion pro/con arguments. Please only contribute something if it is not a rehash of the two basic arguments outlined above. Thanks. --CTM] -- ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Sharon Lindsey O'Neil "I could be happy/I could be quite naive/ Bitnet: oneil@unomai1 It's only me and my shadow/Happy in our Internet: oneil@zeus.unomaha.edu make believe/Soon." -- Tears for Fears ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~