klautky@vaxa.weeg.uiowa.EDU (06/19/91)
Dear Readers,
In another thread in this newsgroup a question was posed about why
people (usually men) would want to display erotic pictures at work.
There were a large variety of responses given (a lot which had not
occured to me). One of the posts mentioned that women may display
nude pics of men but only as a response or "revenge" for similar
pics of women displayed by men. So that idea left me with a question.
I am interested in a response to how women view these pictorials of
women vs how men view men. Some of my female friends say that these
pictures (of women) are personally degrading to them especially ones
that depict women in a "dumb blonde" or "come and get me" stereotype.
I do not feel that way about pictures of men displayed similarly and
I do not know any men who say they feel degraded by these pictures
(though I expect there are some). When I asked my friends why they
respond to the pictures in a personal way they usually replied: I just
do, they're nasty, etc. Do women put themselves in the "shoes" of
the woman in the picture then get disgusted by it? Are women conditioned
to dislike these pictures in ways that men are not? Are men conditioned
to do the opposite? Is there a difference in response between
straights and gays?
Note that I am not asking whether one view is right or wrong, only if
the response is split as described above. I also make the caveat that
I do not expect all men and women to fall into one or the other camp.
I just want to know, on the average, if there is a different way
(conditioned response?) in viewing these pictures that breaks down
along gender lines.
Steve
_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-
Rank of white, Hispanic, and black girls, among those who lose the
most self-esteem during puberty: 1,2,3 Harpers, April '91
Value of jewelry Madonna wore to the Academy Awards last March:
$20,000,000 Harper's, June '91
_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-chris@psych.toronto.EDU (Christine Hitchcock) (06/20/91)
I've been thinking about this issue for a few days, and following the posts here. It seems to me that the response to seeing photographs of naked women in the workplace has a bunch of features. Let me first say that it makes me feel uncomfortable. Let me secondly say that I am *not* advocating censorship necessarily, I'd just like to add my impressions to this discussion. I was thinking that one facet of what crosses _my_ mind when I see a beautiful woman's naked form on someone's wall is one of inferiority. I'm forced to realize that appearance is important to this person, and that I'm not up to snuff. Another facet is the feeling of being reduced to a physical stimulus. In some work environments, the number of pictures of naked women may well be greater than the number of clothed women working there. So perhaps I would feel that when people working there think woman, or see a woman (live, or picture), they tend to think of her in a sexual way. Feeling that my value is being measured on that reduced scale does make me feel devalued. And, to get to the gender difference, I think a difference in reactions may be related to the fact that associating women with sexuality is used as an insult in our society (slut, loose woman, etc.), but associating men with (heterosexual) sexuality is not. So, like another recent poster, although I will admit that I am a woman who enjoys sex, I also feel vulnerable to comments about it. Chris. -- Chris Hitchcock, Dept. of Psychology chris@psych.toronto.edu University of Toronto Toronto, Ontario UseNet: I only read it for the CANADA M5S 1A1 .signatures
wjf@mvuxn.att.COM (William J Fallon) (06/21/91)
In article <1991Jun19.000002.23504@psych.toronto.edu> chris@psych.toronto.EDU (Christine Hitchcock) writes: ... >It seems to me that the response to seeing photographs of naked women >in the workplace has a bunch of features. > >Let me first say that it makes me feel uncomfortable. Let me secondly >say that I am *not* advocating censorship necessarily, I'd just like >to add my impressions to this discussion. They make me uncomfortable too and I'm not in favor of censorship but it seems to me that in a work environment it is reasonaable to expect management to set policies that will lead to most people feeling reasonably comfortable and if this means no nude pictures then censorship, if indeed that's what this is, is necessary. >I was thinking that one facet of what crosses _my_ mind when I see a >beautiful woman's naked form on someone's wall is one of inferiority. >I'm forced to realize that appearance is important to this person, and >that I'm not up to snuff. Well you feel what you feel and others feel what they feel but appearance is only one part of a total person. If you feel inferior because you are not as beautiful naked as someoone else then YOU must value appearance. It's not clear that the person posting the pin-up really thinks appearance has great value in a real person. >Another facet is the feeling of being reduced to a physical stimulus. >In some work environments, the number of pictures of naked women may >well be greater than the number of clothed women working there. So >perhaps I would feel that when people working there think woman, or >see a woman (live, or picture), they tend to think of her in a >sexual way. Feeling that my value is being >measured on that reduced scale does make me feel devalued. Well it makes ME feel that the people who think that way (the men, I mean) are jerks.
U23700%uicvm.uic.edu@ohstvma.acs.ohio-state.EDU (06/21/91)
In article <9106180520.AA13791@ns-mx.uiowa.edu>, klautky@vaxa.weeg.uiowa.EDU says: >I am interested in a response to how women view these pictorials of >women vs how men view men. Some of my female friends say that these >pictures (of women) are personally degrading to them especially ones >that depict women in a "dumb blonde" or "come and get me" stereotype. For myself, I guess some of it has to do with how I feel at the time, and also the prevalence of the images. As one post put it, if the images outnumber the real women, and the images are all sex object/"come and get me", I think I'd be uncomfortable. Because I've taken classes and read literature dealing with media stereotypes, I know that none of the images is of a "real" woman -- but if I felt I were being compared to them (not being a ravishing beauty with perfect features), I would feel degraded and kind of humiliated. There is also a difference in what *kind* of images they are. If they could fall into the "fine art" category of photo- graphy, or at least "experimental" art photography, I would not be as threatened, because I see (and have made) such "art" photography as a celebration of the unique, or of cer- tain concepts of beauty, which certainly can't apply to every woman or man. If, however, the photos are obviously magazine pornography, I would have an ambivalent reaction: 1) I would find it exciting, depending on the act(s) depicted, but 2) I would have a problem with someone who so obviously had to demonstrate their masculinity or sexuality in the work place. Just as I don't want my sexual practices the subject of work discussion, I feel it is inappropriate for a man to display his erotic "likes" in the work place, because of it's potential for offending people. >I do not feel that way about pictures of men displayed similarly and >I do not know any men who say they feel degraded by these pictures Are we talking about "hunk" calendars, with pictures of guys in tight speedos? Or are we talking about hardcore pornographic images of men with large or unusual erections? How would you feel if it were the latter? I have no problem with the bimbo bikini posters/pin-ups with big breasts (probably because my breast size is equal to or bigger than theirs). On the other hand, I resent pictures of stick thin women, because I am on the overweight side. Do you see the difference? If you saw a picture of a guy with an unusually long or thick erect penis on a female coworker's desk, wall or pc, how would you feel? Also, through the recent past, it has been largely women and women's bodies which have been portrayed as sex objects or used to sell products. I'm really tired of it. Women's bodies are used to sell things to men and women. I'm tired of women being pitched as the only sex which may be a sexual object. Look around you, in newspaper and magazine ads, tv commercials, billboards, ads in or on public transportation -- and then mentally change all of the women's bodies which are advertising products into men's bodies. Now how do you feel? Isn't it a bit much? And why is it only women's bodies are beautiful enough (or saleable enough) in present times to sell things or be displayed? Are men's bodies not beautiful? Certainly they are, in all their many unique forms. So why not show more male flesh? Because it doesn't sell? >(though I expect there are some). When I asked my friends why they >respond to the pictures in a personal way they usually replied: I just >do, they're nasty, etc. Do women put themselves in the "shoes" of >the woman in the picture then get disgusted by it? Are women conditioned Do we put ourselves in the shoes of those women? I do. That's the basis on which some images turn me on, and some turn me off. >to dislike these pictures in ways that men are not? Are men conditioned Yes, women are conditioned to dislike these pictures because of the erotic/sexual flavor of the images. Women in this society are conditioned by society, religion, mass media, the culture, and *their parents* (often their own mothers) to think that sex should not interest them, and that they should not be sexual beings, or sexually active, or like sex, because if they do they are dirty. Come to think of it, women *and men* are conditioned by some religions to think sex outside marriage and procreation is sinful and dirty. Being the ones usually responsible for raising children and helping them develop morals, it only makes sense that girls and women introject these attitudes in a stronger way than men -- they have to pass the attitudes on to their children, especially their girl children. >to do the opposite? Is there a difference in response between >straights and gays? Don't know. So far, I'm hetero, female, and enjoy sex and some pornography/erotica. I do, however, prefer to have a choice about seeing erotica, instead of being forced to see it because someone else has it hanging up in my work place. >I just want to know, on the average, if there is a different way >(conditioned response?) in viewing these pictures that breaks down >along gender lines. In my opinion, yes, there is a gender line which breaks up reactions to pin-up images of women and men. I also think it has a lot to do with how you view yourself and your sex- uality. I enjoy sex and pornography and have freed myself of a lot of guilt through some counseling and wide reading on feminism, sex, and the media. Consequently I am not dis- gusted by pin-ups, erotic literature/images, or pornogaphy and each has had a place in my life for some years now, alone or with a s.o. Most people I know, male and female, who are pretty secure in their senses of self and masculinity/femin- inity, don't seem to be too bothered by sexual imagery (ex- cept on sexist grounds). On the other hand, some of the more homophobic and porno-phobic people I've know weren't too sure of themselves sexually. This has been especially true of people I know who dislike seeing lesbian/gay sex shown in pornography. Two of the more sexually insecure guys I've known are thoroughly disgusted by bi-sexual porn which shows men having sex with men as well as with women. (I suspect that a large percentage of men feel this way, because of the rarity of finding male-male sex portrayed in otherwise "straight" porn). On the other hand, I think a lot more women are disgusted by porn than men. Al- though, many years ago when I was in high school, I had a surprisingly honest (but short) conversation with a girl friend regarding pornography. "Girls may say they hate porno movies and they're disgusting. But I'll bet they get wet watching them," she said. Perhaps peer pressure/society influences women to say that they dislike it, even when they don't.
rivero@dev8c.mdcbbs.com (06/21/91)
In article <9106180520.AA13791@ns-mx.uiowa.edu>, klautky@vaxa.weeg.uiowa.EDU writes: > > I am interested in a response to how women view these pictorials of > women vs how men view men. Some of my female friends say that these > pictures (of women) are personally degrading to them especially ones > that depict women in a "dumb blonde" or "come and get me" stereotype. > I do not feel that way about pictures of men displayed similarly and > I do not know any men who say they feel degraded by these pictures > (though I expect there are some). A personal observation. I am not offended by pictures of nude men hanging in the offices of female coworkers. I do know some men who ARE offended, referring to these photos as "muscle bound surf bums". However, these offended persons strike me as being rather insecure about themselves. ========================================================================== \\\\ Michael Rivero | "I drank WHAT!" |"When MARRIAGE is illegal,| (. rivero@dev8a.mdcbbs | Socrates ------------------- Only | )> DISCLAIMER::: |-----------| "How come I'm | OUTLAWS will | == "Hey man, I wasn't |Looking4luv|taxed by the guy | have INLAWS! | ---/ even here then!" |Settle4sex!|I voted AGAINST!"| | ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++-------------------+++++++++++++++
kadie@m.cs.uiuc.EDU ("Carl M. Kadie") (06/21/91)
rivero@dev8c.mdcbbs.com writes: >In article <9106180520.AA13791@ns-mx.uiowa.edu>, klautky@vaxa.weeg.uiowa.EDU writes: [...] >A personal observation. I am not offended by pictures of nude men >hanging in the offices of female coworkers. [...] How do would you feel about pictures of nude men hanging in the offices of male coworkers? - Carl -- Carl Kadie -- kadie@cs.uiuc.edu -- University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign
martyst@sco.COM (Fuming Incense Stencher) (06/26/91)
In article <1991Jun19.145117.1@dev8c.mdcbbs.com> rivero@dev8c.mdcbbs.com writes: >A personal observation. I am not offended by pictures of nude men >hanging in the offices of female coworkers. I do know some men who ARE >offended, referring to these photos as "muscle bound surf bums". >However, these offended persons strike me as being rather insecure >about themselves. A co-worker has a couple of beefcake pictures up in her cubicle. They are rather arty shots of muscle-bound dudes emphasizing their bodies: one's head is out of the frame and the other is kneeling facing away from the viewer. My first reaction was similar to what I hear a lot of the women saying here: "Oh hell, I'm not as gorgeous as that." My second reaction is, "Well, that's what she thinks is good to look at. She's a nice person to work with, pleasant and hard-working. She's got a right to a few square inches of delight in her work day." To sum up: It's a little deflating to my ego, but not dangerous. Marty -- Your pal, Marty Stevens + martyst@sco.COM + ...!{uunet,ucscc}!sco!martyst "Whew! I'll leave my angst locked in the car, then." -- tracyr