lab@uunet.uu.net (Lance Beckner) (05/27/89)
I always thought that I did a good job of putting my thoughts into words. Either I was terribly wrong, or my articles on drinking were a definite exception. Hopefully, by responding to the articles below, I can clarify my views. I do apologize if a came across as legalistic or as a "pharisee". It is not my goal to judge anyone. Instead, I want to look at drinking from a Biblical perspective. I just hope and pray that in this article, I'll be clear. Please be patient. Thanks. In article <May.21.22.14.55.1989.2761@geneva.rutgers.edu>, ciriello@lafcol.uucp (Patrick Ciriello II) responding to my 1st article, (in response to the question "has the guy who had too much too drink sinned?"): >No, I don't think so. Remember, the whole issue of motive is involved >here. Is he drinking in order to lose control? No. It was a mistake. I'm not sure I agree with you, it's possible to sin against God without having the "motive" of sinning against God. (I do it quite often). As an example: If I am impatient with God, or if there is fear or doubt about a situation (hospital bills when my kids' asthma flares up). My motive was not to fear or doubt, and yet, the fear (sin) and doubt (sin) were there. >If he does not learn from that mistake, then you are entering the realm >of 'I know it is wrong for me, but I will do it anyway'. Now you have >sin. I don't think anyone would argue with this statement. >> ....... But if we start thinking >> of every minor misstep as "a sin" (even though of course ultimately it >> is), I'm worried that we may tend to create a sort of up-tight >> attitude towards life that will make us err on the side of not doing >> things. Refusing to take advantage of the joys that God put here for >> us can be sin of a different kind. -clh] >And I think that this was the biggest problem with the leader of the >Jews in the time of Christ ... any I believe that many of our churches >practice just this type of living, and they act like, to quote a friend, >they have been 'sucking on green persimmons'. Or, as I have heard it said, "Some people are so 'heavenly minded' that they are no earthly good." I agree, and I think I've shown that: 1. I wasn't applying this to the entire Christian walk. 2. I am not trying to judge others. In article <May.25.23.52.53.1989.3611@geneva.rutgers.edu>, mls@mhuxu.UUCP (Michael Siemon) writes: >purely as an abstract question, wine can be taken (as it was classically) >as a vehicle that *opens* us to the Spirit, that *encourages* our yielding. Could you maybe give me some examples or scenarios here? I'm having a hard time imagining any myself (maybe I'm a little too narrow minded :-)) >The trouble with abstract statements (mine or Lance's) is that they really >don't help much in actual cases, say in the situation Lance cites: >+ As an example, let's take [ someone who ] occasionally meets with some >+ friends after work for a few cold ones. He doesn't have a drinking >+ problem but one day he has a little too much. He is responsible and >+ realizes that he is in no condition to drive, so he catches a ride with >+ one of his buddies. Has he sinned? >This is still too abstract, really; how can anyone know the answer without >knowing the person (and even then, one can do little more than guess.) I >want to suggest that the *answer* is not yes or no, but "see your spiritual >advisor." This is excellent advise! >We are expected to help each other, and I would suggest that means we *all* >should have someone we trust whom we can turn to for spiritual advice. In >some cases that will be a pastor or other "official" clergy figure -- but >it by no means *needs* to be such a person. Allow me to go off on a tangent here. I think that all too often, Christians overload their pastors or elders or whoever, and completely ignore the surplus of strength and advice that their brothers or sisters could offer. We are all parts of one body. We shouldn't ask one or two "parts" to carry the whole load. In article <May.26.00.20.48.1989.3697@geneva.rutgers.edu>, jygabler@ucdavis.edu (Jason Gabler) writes: >As a Christian I feel it is "legal" to consume alcoholic beverages. However, >I would give two reasons why and when it is not appropriate: >1) I have an occasional few beers with some friends. I do not get drunk. > I do not get a "buzz" . At least, that is I control myself not to > enter such states. If I ever find my self in such a condition, that > will tell me one, to repent for the sin of drunkenness, and two, that > I am not responsible enough with alcoholic beverages to be able to drink > them and I really ought not to touch them anymore. >2) "Therefore, if food causes my brother to stumble, I will never eat meat > again, that I might not cause my brother to stumble" ( I Corinthians > 8:13 N.A.S ) . The point here is quite clear. If my brother is > offended in any way, or if i cause him to believe tat he or I are sinning > I will not drink in his presence. Or even not at all is some cases. >How do you take to this view? I love it! #1 is the point that I was trying to make. You said it MUCH better than I did. Thank you very much! #2 is one that I had not really thought of in this discussion, but it is just as important as #1. We as Christians have a tremendous responsibility to our brothers and sisters. Does this mean that if I thought ALL drinking was wrong for ALL Christians you shouldn't drink while I'm visiting you? I believe the answer is yes. (btw, I hope it's clear by now that I don't believe all drinking is wrong for all Christians) Message-ID: <May.26.00.30.06.1989.3764@geneva.rutgers.edu>, ciriello@lafcol.uucp (Patrick Ciriello II) responding to my 2nd article, writes: >In article <May.21.22.11.48.1989.2699@geneva.rutgers.edu>, fibercom!lab@uunet.uu.net >(Lance Beckner) writes: >> Let's look again at Ephesians 5:18. >> "And do not be drunk with wine, in which is dissipation; >> BUT be filled with the Spirit" (emphasis mine) >> I read this to mean that you can't do both. The implication then, is that >> (to much) alcohol impairs our ability to respond to the work of the Holy >> Spirit in our life. We are God's children and He wants to use us. If we ^^^^^ >> do something that prevents our being used by God, it is sin. ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ >Also, I don't think you can use that particular scripture is such a >narrow sence. How do you read it? (this is not a flame, it is a serious question) > Whatever get's in our way of being used by God is sin, ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ >especially if we are aware of it. ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ Pat, see where I've "underlined" part of your statement and then part of mine I believe that you and I said the same thing here. True? > Some of us get drunk with power, some >with sex, some with alcohol, some with pride .... and there are those >people who can actually use this. Suppose you are attempting to reach >out to alcoholics ... if you have never been drunk, how do you know what >it feels like? I am not advocating that you should sin in order to be >able to understand where someone is coming from, but suppose you, at >some point, were drunk, or even and alcoholic. At that time, it may ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ >have been sin ... but now God is using it for good. ^^^^^^^^^^^^^ That is the point that I was trying to make. And yes, God can use ANYTHING for good. Some people were Satan worshipers, and they are now serving the living God. Paul was a persecutor of the Church, and God used Paul's past for good. >I really do agree with you, for the most part, but you are coming off as >more of a pharisee than someone who is looking for enlightenment. ^^^^^^^^ OUCH!! That hurt. >But you are not taking into account those who are victimized. What a >about a situation where the christian, in order to reach out to those in >need, ends up in a bar-type situation. The people there probably know >who and what he is, and so it is quite likely that they might think it >funny to spike his drink (it has been done to me, although not for the >same reason). By the time he realizes it, it is too late ..... it is >accidental (on his part) ... the sin is not his, but those who spiked >the drink. I really think you are looking too closely on the outside >and not taking into account what is going on on the inside. I really don't think this scenario is even close to the one I offered. Obviously you can't be responsible for someone spiking your drink. But we are responsible for how much we choose to drink. Has this cleared things up any? I sure hope so. I am glad that even though we have differing opinions, we can communicate without hard feelings and/or harsh words. Thank you and may God richly bless you. -- Lance A. Beckner INTERNET: lab@fibercom.com FiberCom, Inc. UUCP: ...!uunet!fibercom!lab P.O. Box 11966 FAX: (703) 342-5961 Roanoke, VA 24022-1966 PHONE: (703) 342-6700
ciriello@lafcol.uucp (Patrick Ciriello II) (06/01/89)
Yes, we do agree on a lot of things. I didn't think you WERE a pharisee .. it was more a comment on the way you wrote your article. Then again, after reading a lot of the other stuff on this base, I may have been in a bad mood. Sorry about that .... Oh, and about the 'Wine and Spirit' verse ... I guess I saw it as a 'literal' interpretation without looking at the 'spiritual' side of it. You are right, but that particular verse shouldn't be limited to alcohol. I guess that is what I was trying to say. Pat ( the DRAGON that was made WHITE )