hwt@watmath.waterloo.edu (Henry Troup) (07/15/89)
In article <Jul.13.02.59.56.1989.28632@athos.rutgers.edu> bnr-fos!bnr-public!davem@watmath.waterloo.edu (Dave Mielke) writes: > >One final comment: Any doctrine that hints that a person has a chance >to get out of hell after he has been put into it is in grave violation >with the Word of God. Luke 16:26 tells us (hence refers to heaven and >thence refers to hell) "And beside all this, between us and you there >is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you >cannot; neither can they pass to us, that {would come} from thence.". > >Dave Mielke, 613-726-0014 >856 Grenon Avenue >Ottawa, Ontario, Canada >K2B 6G3 As I work with Dave, we just had a brief conversation on this, and I thought I'd continue it... To me, this seems to fall into the category of 'with men this is impossible; but with God all things are possible'. 'They which would' cannot pass; unless they accept God, and repent. I believe that God's infinite mercy does not permit the commital to Hell to be final. Only the continual, minute-by-minute and day-by-day rejection of God keeps the damned in Hell. (That's the hell of it, and I'm not joking.) Someone characterized Hell as 'the violent ward of a hospital for the theologically insane'. If Hell doesn't get your attention, you really are in trouble. C.S. Lewis, in the 'Great Divorce' (I think) allegorically describes a bus trip from Hell to Heaven. The point is that free will is what sends people to Hell, and in free will is the ability to change, repent, and escape from Hell. But first, you have to stop liking being in Hell. utgpu!bnr-vpa!bnr-fos!hwt%bnr-public | BNR is not | All that evil requires hwt@bnr (BITNET/NETNORTH) | responsible for | is that good men do (613) 765-2337 (Voice) | my opinions | nothing.
davem@watmath.waterloo.edu (Dave Mielke) (07/19/89)
In article <Jul.15.04.24.20.1989.599@geneva.rutgers.edu> bnr-fos!bnr-public!hwt@watmath.waterloo.edu (Henry Troup) writes: >To me, this seems to fall into the category of 'with men this is >impossible; but with God all things are possible'. 'They which >would' cannot pass; unless they accept God, and repent. > >I believe that God's infinite mercy does not permit the commital to >Hell to be final. Only the continual, minute-by-minute and day-by-day >rejection of God keeps the damned in Hell. (That's the hell of it, >and I'm not joking.) This position would hold true if the mercy of God extended into hell. The Scriptures teach that hell is the eternal banishment from the presence of God and they also teach that the ability to believe in Him is a gift from Him. James 1:17 tells us "Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning.". Since one who is in hell is unable to receive any further gifts from God, He will never find himself able to summon up the ability to have faith in God even though he is suffering from the wrath of God. The Scriptures teach that there is no such thing as a second oportunity for divine forgiveness. Hebrews 6:6 tells us "If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put {him} to an open shame.". Dave Mielke, 613-726-0014 856 Grenon Avenue Ottawa, Ontario, Canada K2B 6G3
mccandld@lafcol.uucp (Fortunato) (07/21/89)
In article <Jul.15.04.24.20.1989.599@geneva.rutgers.edu>, bnr-fos!bnr-public!hwt@watmath.waterloo.edu (Henry Troup) writes: > > > I believe that God's infinite mercy does not permit the commital to > Hell to be final. Only the continual, minute-by-minute and day-by-day > rejection of God keeps the damned in Hell. (That's the hell of it, > and I'm not joking.) THis life seems somewhat pointless, doesn't it, if Hell is not final? There's no big need for me to decide I want God now, is there? I can just wait til I'm in hell and change my mind then. After all, most people in hell certainly would turn to God to get out wouldn't they? If I wasn't sure about God and I died and went to hell, I'd think that I'd quickly change my mind. Why does Jesus make such a big deal about changing your life NOW on this earth? All his parables about the spirit that comes like a thief in the night and all of his demands that you turn and serve him NOW (he didn't tell the rich young man to keep his goods, what's the big deal, you can turn to me later if you want) seem to me to point to the fact that you have ONE and ONLY ONE chance to make your decision. When you die , that's all she wrote. No escape lines added. God IS a god of infinite mercy, but he is also a God of infinite judgement(you cannot ignore the old testament Jehovah : the God of Love and the God of wrath are the same GOD , and God never changes.) His mercy has already been revealed through Christ, but he is also a God who cannot ignore what our own free choice has brought upon us: if we desire to be seperated from him, he will let us be seperated from him, because he "respects" our decision. Any choice made from hell would seem to be invalid to me. Like I said before, who wants to be in Hell, especially after you've experienced it. It's not a nice place to visit and I certainly wouldn't want to live there. As a final question, do you believe God would take Satan back under his wing if he repented of his rebellion to God? Certainly God's infinite mercy would extend to the most beloved of his angels too, wouldn't it? hmmm... > Someone characterized Hell as 'the violent ward of a hospital for the > theologically insane'. If Hell doesn't get your attention, you > really are in trouble. If Hell doesn't get your attention, it really musn't be that hellish of an experience. > C.S. Lewis, in the 'Great Divorce' (I think) allegorically describes > a bus trip from Hell to Heaven. The point is that free will is what > sends people to Hell, and in free will is the ability to change, > repent, and escape from Hell. But first, you have to stop liking > being in Hell. > Yes, but free will only works on earth. When you die, you are either rewarded or punished for your life's work and your commitment to God and Christ. It's not an extension of your physical life allowing you to still do good and bad: its the results of how you have already lived. I'm sure that people will keep picking up little bits of scripture to support each side of this, whether its applicable or not. What is important is that we commit ourselves to God now, share Gods Love with people now and not tell ourselves that the now doesn't matter because people really have all eternity to decide. We need to push ourselves, not relax in thinking that hell most certainly is just a place for people to be put in until they decide they now need Christ after they're dead. ---David