lab@uunet.uu.net (Lance Beckner) (07/06/89)
In article <Jul.4.04.01.10.1989.6251@athos.rutgers.edu>, bnr-fos!bnr-public!davem@watmath.waterloo.edu (Dave Mielke) writes: > Even though God ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ > offers salvation to everyone and even commands everyone to seek it, He ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ > Himself has chosen those whom He will save and no one else will be ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ > able to find it, ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ Do you realize what you are saying here? God has commanded all to seek salvation, and yet he intentionally hides the secret of salvation from some. He then will condemn to hell the people that have not found the salvation that He has hidden! Do you really believe this? Let's use an earthly example of this: I tell my five year old daughter, "Angela, I have bought you a wonderful present. If you find it, it is yours, but if you don't, you can't have it. Little does she know that I have hidden her present in the attic. HA, she doesn't even know we HAVE an attic. Furthermore, I decide to spank her for not finding the present (after all, I commanded her to find it, and children are supposed to be obedient to their parents). Is this fair? Is this just? God does not play games with the human race. He sent His Son into the world that the world might be saved. The Lord is not willing that ANY should perish, He wants ALL to come to repentance (2 Peter 3:9). How can it be His will that none should perish, and it also be His will that some not find out the secret to salvation? > Although the Bible, when understood correctly > (something which none of us can attain to), is very accurate about > everything it tells us, He has written it in a style that lends itself > to being understood only when combined with His assistence. This is > why it is so very important to make sure that we test each and every > idea we have with each and every verse in the entire Bible. Failing to > do so could easily lead us to become convinced of completely incorrect > things. I agree that there is probably no human being who *completely* understands the Bible. I also agree that we need to look at scripture in the light of other scripture. I look at the *whole* Bible and I see God working throughout to bring people to Himself. I do not see God trying to "hide" from people, and then punishing them for not finding Him. To me, this describes a very cruel god. > Dave Mielke, 613-726-0014 > 856 Grenon Avenue > Ottawa, Ontario, Canada > K2B 6G3 -- Lance A. Beckner INTERNET: lab@fibercom.com FiberCom, Inc. UUCP: ...!uunet!fibercom!lab P.O. Box 11966 FAX: (703) 342-5961 Roanoke, VA 24022-1966 PHONE: (703) 342-6700 [I don't think that's quite what was meant. When somebody says that "He Himself has chosen those whom He will save and no one else will be able to find it", it's not that God is hiding anything from anyone. It's that he has chosen to create a wide range of kinds of people, including both those who respond to his invitation and those who don't. The fact that he created (or set things up so there would develop) both kinds of people is his choice, so he's responsible for the fact that not everyone accepts his offer. But it's not that his offer is invisible or something. I'm still not sure what I think about all of this. There are a number of unresolved issues running around in my mind regarding predestination. But the classical version of it isn't quite the outrage that it first appears. --clh]
jygabler@ucdavis.edu (Jason Gabler) (07/08/89)
[Quotes Lance Beckner, Dave Mielke, and me about predestination and election. --clh] Yes, this is the old "elect" debate. As usual I have another one of my long prayed about rational fusions of such "opposite" arguments. On one side we see God that loves everyone, and desires that they come to Him and never ends to "stand at the door and knock". Then we have the God who "chooses" who gets into the Kingdom. TO me, one view (the first) makes out a loving God, and the second ( I know its terribly condensed) showa a God who truly loves only a few of His creation. BOTH! of these are in the Bible. Both MUST hold the same amount of water in Christian eyes, or else we say that the LORD contradicts Himself. This is how I "fuse" them. God IS a loving God. He does "stand at the door and knocks" CONSTANTLY. But He DOES choose those whose doors He knocks at. Not out of preference, not out of a more righteous soul. But out of the fact that He knows our hearts. He know who has the proper heart for salvation. I believe He grieves at the thought of knowing the hearts of people; knowing exactly how many do not love Him at all, and never will. So He makes a decision: The short time this Earth is around, I believe God concentrates his "door knocking" on the doors that He sees will be opened to Him. He chooses those who have a capacity for loving Him. Jason Gabler ccjason@castor.ucdavis.edu jygabler@ucdavis
davem@watmath.waterloo.edu (Dave Mielke) (07/08/89)
In article <Jul.6.02.37.17.1989.7519@geneva.rutgers.edu> fibercom!lab@uunet.uu.net (Lance Beckner) writes: >I agree that there is probably no human being who *completely* understands >the Bible. I also agree that we need to look at scripture in the light of >other scripture. I look at the *whole* Bible and I see God working >throughout to bring people to Himself. I do not see God trying to "hide" >from people, and then punishing them for not finding Him. To me, this >describes a very cruel god. I am not describing a cruel God at all. I am describing an overwhealmingly caring, merciful and loving God. He is not punishing anyone because he couldn't figure out what salvation is; He is punishing him for his sinful nature. The truth of the whole matter is that no single one of us hopelessly sinful people deserve even the most minute amount of His grace. Because He took it upon Himself to endure the equivalent of eternal damnation for all those who would believe on Him, He has clearly reserved the right to decide exactly who it is that He suffered for. You quoted 2 Peter 3:9 which says "The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.". You highlighted the words ANY and ALL. I suggest that you have placed the wrong interpretation on this verse. Matthew 19:26 tells us "But Jesus beheld {them}, and said unto them, With men this is impossible; but with God all things are possible.". Matthew 7:13-14 tells us "Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide {is} the gate, and broad {is} the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat: Because strait {is} the gate, and narrow {is} the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.". If nothing is too difficult for God to do, and if He really meant that He is not willing that any single person should perish and that each and every one of us would be saved, then why will hell be so heavily populated? If this is what He really meant, and since He cannot lie, He would merely force everyone to believe in Him. The only way to make the Scripture you quoted agree with the rest of the Bible is to realize that the terms ANY and ALL actually refer only to those whom He has chosen. He is letting this world continue to exist, sinful as it is, because He is not willing that any (whose names are written in the book of life) should perish but that all (those whom He has chosen) can become born so that He can save them to share eternity with Him. If any of us ever thought for a moment that failure to figure out what salvation is would be a valid complaint against God then he would be attempting to gain salvation by a work. Dave Mielke, 613-726-0014 856 Grenon Avenue Ottawa, Ontario, Canada K2B 6G3
lab@uunet.uu.net (Lance Beckner) (07/15/89)
In article <Jul.8.00.56.47.1989.2125@athos.rutgers.edu>, bnr-fos!bnr-public!davem@watmath.waterloo.edu (Dave Mielke) writes: > He is not punishing > anyone because he couldn't figure out what salvation is; He is > punishing him for his sinful nature. I agree with this. But you go further and say that He wants to save some and He does not want to save others. I can not agree with that. > The truth of the whole matter is > that no single one of us hopelessly sinful people deserve even the > most minute amount of His grace. I agree 100%. That fact that any of us are saved is evidence of His mercy. My argument is that the mercy is available to all. > Because He took it upon Himself to endure the equivalent of eternal > damnation for all those who would believe on Him, He has clearly ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ > reserved the right to decide exactly who it is that He suffered for. ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ Yes He has. And He has decided that He died for the world. "And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world." (1 John 2:2) Does John 3:16 say, "For God so loved the world..." or, "For God so loved the elect..." ??? > You quoted 2 Peter 3:9 which says "The Lord is not slack concerning > his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to > us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come > to repentance.". You highlighted the words ANY and ALL. I suggest that > you have placed the wrong interpretation on this verse. Matthew 19:26 > tells us "But Jesus beheld {them}, and said unto them, With men this > is impossible; but with God all things are possible.". Matthew 7:13-14 > tells us "Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide {is} the gate, and > broad {is} the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be > which go in thereat: Because strait {is} the gate, and narrow {is} the > way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.". If ^^^^^^^^^^^^ Yes there are few that find it. But the invitation is open to all. > nothing is too difficult for God to do, and if He really meant that He > is not willing that any single person should perish and that each and > every one of us would be saved, then why will hell be so heavily > populated? If this is what He really meant, and since He cannot lie, > He would merely force everyone to believe in Him. The only way to make > the Scripture you quoted agree with the rest of the Bible is to > realize that the terms ANY and ALL actually refer only to those whom > He has chosen. He is letting this world continue to exist, sinful as > it is, because He is not willing that any (whose names are written in > the book of life) should perish but that all (those whom He has > chosen) can become born so that He can save them to share eternity > with Him. If any of us ever thought for a moment that failure to > figure out what salvation is would be a valid complaint against God > then he would be attempting to gain salvation by a work. You accuse me of a contradiction by comparing my use of 2 Peter 3:9 with your use of Matt. 19:26. And yet, it would appear that there is a contra- diction in your paragraph above. You say that according to Matt. 19:26, "...with God all things are possible." and yet you go on to say that God can not lie (Num.23:19, 1 Sam. 15:29, Titus 1:2). On the surface, this would appear to be a contradiction. God can do anything, God can not lie. Obviously we need to reconcile these passages. As we agree, God's word does not contradict itself. I think the best way to understand this, is to say that God can do anything within His character. Lying is not one of God's attributes. That is why He can not lie. In the same manner, it is not part of God's character to allow those that have rejected Him and His Son into His presence. God is a Holy God. To come into His presence, we need to be either A) Perfect or B) Covered with Christ's perfection. Obviously, (A) is out of the question. (B) is available to all, but many will refuse it. You state that if it were *truly* God's will that *all* should come to know Him, then all would come to know Him. This is not a bad argument, but it implies that God's will is *always* done. I read the Bible, and this is just not true. Was it God's will that Adam and Eve disobey? Was it God's will that the human race be tainted with sin? Was it God's will that Cain kill Abel? Was it God's will that Israel would turn their back on the LORD over and over again to worship false gods? Is it God's will that I, a child of God, sin? The answer to all of these questions is a resounding "NO". In the same manner we can ask, "Is it God's will that any should perish?" No, it is not His will that any should perish. But those that refuse His grace will perish. And He won't force anyone to be saved. He doesn't want robots serving Him because they have to. He wants His children serving Him because they want to. And the latter also gives Him more glory. I'll end with a quote from H. A. Ironside's book _In_The_Heavenlies_. There is no such thing taught in the Word of God as predestination to eternal damnation. If men are lost, they are lost because they do not come to Christ. When men do come to Christ, they learn the wonderful secret that God has foreknown it from all eternity, and that He had settled it before the world came into existence that they were to share the glory of His Son throughout endless ages. D. L. Moody used to say in his quaint way, when people talked about the subject of election, "The whosoever wills are the elect, and the whosoever won'ts are the non-elect." And so you can settle it for yourself whether you will be among the elect of God or not.[1] [1] H. A. Ironside, _In_The_Heavenlies_, Loizeaux Brothers, Inc. 1973 God bless you. Lance -- Lance A. Beckner INTERNET: lab@fibercom.com FiberCom, Inc. UUCP: ...!uunet!fibercom!lab P.O. Box 11966 FAX: (703) 342-5961 Roanoke, VA 24022-1966 PHONE: (703) 342-6700
davem@watmath.waterloo.edu (Dave Mielke) (07/19/89)
In article <Jul.15.04.07.03.1989.15416@athos.rutgers.edu> fibercom!lab@uunet.uu.net (Lance Beckner) writes: >implies that God's will is *always* done. I read the Bible, and this is >just not true. > >Was it God's will that Adam and Eve disobey? >Was it God's will that the human race be tainted with sin? >Was it God's will that Cain kill Abel? >Was it God's will that Israel would turn their back on the LORD over and over >again to worship false gods? >Is it God's will that I, a child of God, sin? > >The answer to all of these questions is a resounding "NO". Yes, I believe that God's will is always done. I believe that the answer to each and every one of your questions is a resounding YES and not no. While I shall not deal with each and every one of your questions, unless you really want me to, I shall deal with a couple of them to illustrate what I am saying. Let's take perhaps the simplest of your questions first. It was most definitely God's will that Israel reject Him over and over again. If they had not finally rejected Him altogether then Jesus would never have been crucified and salvation would not have been able to come to anyone. Acts 2:23 tells us "Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain:". Through the nation of Israel God has also shown us that even though He deals very initmately with a huge bunch of people, all of them (and that includes each one of us) will still insist on rejecting Him unless He gives them the ability to believe. In the wilderness, any Israelite could have looked out of his tent door and seen either the cloud by day or the pillar of fire by night and remembered that the very presence of God Himself was right there. Every day when collecting his ration of mannah he was presented with concrete evidence that God was providing for his needs. They needed only look at moses's veiled face to recall that the reflection of the glory of God shone from it and that it was so bright that they could not bear to look at it. They had all the plagues in Egypt and the dividing of the Red Sea to remind them of His power. Yet, with all this plus a lot of other things which I have not mentioned here, Hebrews 3:19 tells us "So we see that they could not enter in because of unbelief.". Jesus confirms this lesson when He tells us in John 6:44 that "No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.". You ask if it is God's will that those whom He has saved still sin while in this phase of their lives. Again, I believe that the answer is yes. He teaches that we have both a body and a soul, and that it is only our souls that get resurrected at the time that salvation is received; we are not to receive our resurrected bodies until the last day. It is clearly His will that, although we now have a sinless soul, we retain our sinful bodies for the time being. I see two reasons for this. God teaches that we will receive substantially more than mere sinless bodies; they will be glorified spiritual bodies designed for inhabiting and compatible with the new heaven and the new earth. Within such a body we would be unable to remain here on this earth and spread the Gospel message to those who are not yet saved. He has also done things this way so that, while amongst the unsaved, we will be restrained from falling into the temptation of letting our perfection get to our heads, i.e. constantly acting like we are better than they are. An extreme case of this is when God intentionally caused Paul to endure some sort of suffering for the rest of his life. After having given him a glimpse of heaven, 2 Corinthians 12:7 tells us "And lest I should be exalted above measure through the abundance of the revelations, there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, the messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I should be exalted above measure.". I believe that a lot of confusion arises because there is a tendancy to confuse the will of God with respect to how He commands us to live with the will of God with respect to those sins which He allows to occur. Through allowing sin to enter into His creation He created for Himself a marvelous forum in which to show all of His glory, love, compassion, mercy, etc. We must remember that God actually hates the people who sin. There is a common belief that God hates the sin yet loves the sinner. This is not true at all. Psalm 5:5 tells us "The foolish shall not stand in thy sight: thou hatest all workers of iniquity.". Psalm 11:5 tells us "The LORD trieth the righteous: but the wicked and him that loveth violence his soul hateth.". Proverbs 6:16-19 tells us "These six {things} doth the LORD hate: yea, seven {are} an abomination unto him: A proud look, a lying tongue, and hands that shed innocent blood, An heart that deviseth wicked imaginations, feet that be swift in running to mischief, A false witness {that} speaketh lies, and he that soweth discord among brethren.". Note that the preceding Scripture does not say that God hates pride, lying, killing, etc.; it tells us that God hates the tongue, the hands, the feet, etc. that do all of these bad things. The final entry in the list makes it very clear; we are told that God hates HE that soweth discord among brethren. For those who do not want to believe that there are those whom God hates, I would ask them to read Malachi 1:3 where we are told rather blatently that although God loved Jacob He hated Esau. Just to make sure that we wouldn't miss this as a significant verse, it is quoted in Romans 9:13. With all of this hatred toward the sinners themselves, the way in which He has chosen to show His love for those whom He chose to save is even more remarkable and worthy of continual and fervent praise. The Scriptures teach that all those whom God loves will be saved. Romans 8:38-39 tells us "For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.". We know, therefore, that the ones who shall not be saved are the ones whom God has not chosen to love. We know that He hated Esau. We know that He must have hated most of the pharisees because we are told that they committed the one sin that shall never be forgiven, i.e. blasphemy of the Holy Spirit, by claiming that Jesus got His power from Satan. We know that Judas Iscariot is not saved. These few real examples tell us that in no way will each and every single person be saved; in so doing, they also tell us that there are most definitely those whom God hates. When John 3:16 tells us that God so loved the world we must be careful to make sure that we do not read into this that God so loved all the people in the world. There is abundant evidence that He loves His creation, but there is ample evidence that He does not love all of its members. In response to all the preaching by the apostles on and after Penticost we are told that God did not bring all the hearers to salvation. The last half of Acts 2:47 tells us "the Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved.". Dave Mielke, 613-726-0014 856 Grenon Avenue Ottawa, Ontario, Canada K2B 6G3 [I'm sort of surprised to see some of these comments. The traditional view by those who believe in predestination is that the corruption of sin extends to body and soul equally. Indeed spiritual sins such as pride are probably more serious than those caused by bodily appetites. I'll let those who believe in the limited atonement comment in more detail on the rest of this message. However it's my impression that even the most extreme believers in predestination considered that God's purposes were ultimately merciful. If that's your understanding, it doesn't come througb as clearly as it might. --clh]
dlombard@uunet.uu.net (Debbie Lombardo) (07/19/89)
In article <Jul.8.00.56.47.1989.2125@athos.rutgers.edu> bnr-fos!bnr-public!davem@watmath.waterloo.edu (Dave Mielke) writes: > >In article <Jul.6.02.37.17.1989.7519@geneva.rutgers.edu> fibercom!lab@uunet.uu.net (Lance Beckner) writes: >He would merely force everyone to believe in Him. ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ But is faith that is forced true faith? God did not create us to be robots, he created us to be creatures of free will so that our love for him would mean something. Love given because it is ordered means little to the one receiving it. It is true that God COULD force us to believe, but that is not His Will. A loving God would want those who came to Him to come because they chose to, not because they were forced to. I do not believe our God is a God of wrath, but one of love. > >Dave Mielke, 613-726-0014 >856 Grenon Avenue >Ottawa, Ontario, Canada >K2B 6G3 -=-=--=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Debbie Lombardo | Why put off until tomorrow dlombard@carroll1.cc.edu OR | what you can put off uunet!marque!carroll1!dlombard | indefinitely? -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
lab@uunet.uu.net (Lance Beckner) (07/21/89)
In article <Jul.19.02.25.23.1989.16631@athos.rutgers.edu>, carroll1!dlombard@uunet.uu.net (Debbie Lombardo) writes: > > In article <Jul.8.00.56.47.1989.2125@athos.rutgers.edu> bnr-fos!bnr-public!davem@watmath.waterloo.edu (Dave Mielke) writes: > > > >In article <Jul.6.02.37.17.1989.7519@geneva.rutgers.edu> fibercom!lab@uunet.uu.net (Lance Beckner) writes: > >He would merely force everyone to believe in Him. > ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ Sorry, but I did not write this. Dave Mielke wrote this. I wrote: grace will perish. And He won't force anyone to be saved. He doesn't want robots serving Him because they have to. He wants His children serving Him because they want to. And the latter also gives Him more glory. -- Lance A. Beckner "Jesus loves me, this I know, INTERNET: lab@fibercom.com for the Bible tells me so." UUCP: ...!uunet!fibercom!lab [sorry, a confusion of widgets. I hope I didn't do it. I normally try to remove nested widgets, so that it's clear who said what. --clh]
lab@uunet.uu.net (Lance Beckner) (07/21/89)
[In a previous article, Lance Beckner asked whether it was God's will that Adam and Eve disobey, the human race be tained with sin, Cain kill Abel, Israel would turn their back on the LORD over and over, worship false gods, and finally that we, children of God, sin. He answered a resounding "NO". bnr-fos!bnr-public!davem@watmath.waterloo.edu (Dave Mielke), on the other hand, answered yes: Yes, I believe that God's will is always done. --clh] Then why do we need to pray for His will to be done on earth as it is in heaven? :-) Okay, for the sake of discussion, let's clarify things. When I was speaking of God's will, I was speaking of things that God DESIRES to happen. If I'm not mistaken, you are speaking of things that He ALLOWS to happen. Both are correct views and can be categorized as His "Divine Will" and His "Permissive Will". Obviously, God ALLOWS a lot to happen. As a matter of fact, I would go so far as to say that NOTHING happens that God does not allow. I am sure that you would agree with me on that. My original argument was from 2 Peter 3:9 where it says that the Lord is "...not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance." I read this as the Lord is not DESIRING that any should perish, but DESIRING that all should come to repentance. Obviously He is ALLOWING many to perish. You say that if He were DESIRING that none should perish, than He wouldn't ALLOW any to perish. And I say that there are a lot of things that He does not DESIRE and yet He still ALLOWS. So I ask again: Was it God's DESIRE that Adam and Eve disobey? Was it God's DESIRE that the human race be tainted with sin? Was it God's DESIRE that Cain kill Abel? Was it God's DESIRE that Israel would turn their back on the LORD over and over again to worship false gods? Is it God's DESIRE that I, a child of God, sin? The answer to all of these questions is a resounding "NO". Now lets take a look at your arguments: > Let's take perhaps the simplest of your questions first. It was most > definitely God's will that Israel reject Him over and over again. If > they had not finally rejected Him altogether then Jesus would never > have been crucified and salvation would not have been able to come to > anyone. Acts 2:23 tells us "Him, being delivered by the determinate > counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands > have crucified and slain:". I believe that this speaks of God's FOREKNOWLEDGE of Israel's rejection. not His DESIRE for their rejection. Can you give me any biblical support for the theory that God DESIRED for Israel to worship and serve non- existent gods? > You ask if it is God's will that those whom He has saved still sin > while in this phase of their lives. Again, I believe that the answer is > yes. He teaches that we have both a body and a soul, and that it is Lets remember the question here: Is it God's DESIRE that I, a child of God, sin? "Be angry, and do not sin": do not let the sun go down on your wrath" Ephesians 4:26 (NKJV) And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption. Ephesians 4:30 (NKJV) My little children, these thing I write to you that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous. 1 John 2:1 (NKJV) It is not God's DESIRE that we sin. However, He does ALLOW us to sin. > He has also done > things this way so that, while amongst the unsaved, we will be > restrained from falling into the temptation of letting our perfection > get to our heads, i.e. constantly acting like we are better than they > are. I'm sorry, but this is a very bad argument. You are implying that God wants us to sin so that we won't develop the sin of pride. In other words, God wants us to sin so that we may be kept from sin. That doesn't make any sense. > I believe that a lot of confusion arises because there is a tendancy to > confuse the will of God with respect to how He commands us to live with > the will of God with respect to those sins which He allows to occur. And this is my point. What God DESIRES versus what God ALLOWS. So again, I say that God DESIRES everyone to be saved. However, many will reject His love and perish as a result. He ALLOWS that to happen. He does not DESIRE it to happen. > mercy, etc. We must remember that God actually hates the people who ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ > sin. There is a common belief that God hates the sin yet loves the ^^^^ If what you are saying were true, then God hates me (because I *DO* sin). He also hates you and every other person on this planet according to your statement above. For ALL have sinned (Romans 3:23). Friend, If God hates all people that sin, then no one has a chance! But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us. Romans 5:8 (NKJV) I don't have enough spare DAYS to type in all of the Bible verses that tell us that God loved us even while we were sinners. > The Scriptures teach that all those whom God loves will be saved. > Romans 8:38-39 tells us "For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor > life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, > nor things to come, Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, > shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ > Jesus our Lord.". In case you didn't know, Paul is writing to Christians here. > We know, therefore, that the ones who shall not be > saved are the ones whom God has not chosen to love. We know that He No, we don't "know" that. The Bible says that "God so loved the world" NOT that "God so loved the elect (or the chosen or whatever)" > hated Esau. We know that He must have hated most of the pharisees > because we are told that they committed the one sin that shall never be > forgiven, i.e. blasphemy of the Holy Spirit, by claiming that Jesus got > His power from Satan. We know that Judas Iscariot is not saved. These > few real examples tell us that in no way will each and every single > person be saved; in so doing, they also tell us that there are most I never said that each and every person will be saved. I only said that it is God's DESIRE that everyone be saved. Please don't confuse my views with the views of others. > definitely those whom God hates. When John 3:16 tells us that God so > loved the world we must be careful to make sure that we do not read > into this that God so loved all the people in the world. There is So according to you we have: "For God so loved SOME people, that He sent His only begotten Son, that those whom God CHOSE to believe in Him, should not perish but have everlasting life." I'm sorry, but none of my translations say anything close to that. I don't buy it. > abundant evidence that He loves His creation, but there is ample > evidence that He does not love all of its members. In response to all > the preaching by the apostles on and after Penticost we are told that > God did not bring all the hearers to salvation. The last half of Acts That's right. He didn't bring the ones that rejected the Gospel to salvation. > 2:47 tells us "the Lord added to the church daily such as should be > saved.". Those that believed should be saved. Those that didn't, shouldn't. The invitation went out to all. But not all responded. Dave, let me close by saying that I think we are at an impasse here. I'm sure that you will respond to this article, but unless you have something new for me to consider, I probably won't respond. I don't see any sense in us throwing scripture at each other over this subject any longer. (I'm sure the rest of the group would agree.) I don't expect to change your mind, and I KNOW that you won't change mine. It has been fun and challenging. I hope that there are no hard feelings. I know that there are none on my part. In Christian Friendship, Lance -- Lance Beckner | INTERNET: lab@fibercom.com | UUCP: ...!uunet!fibercom!lab ---------------------------- 2 Timothy 2:15 ----------------------------- "Study to show thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth." [The question is whether there is any difference between allowing and willing when you are dealing with the creator. God set up the universe. He knew what the results were going to be. Presumably had he wanted them to be otherwise, he would have set it up otherwise. Furthermore, when you say that he simply allows many of the things that happen, you remove a factor that many Christians consider important: that we can consider everything that happens around us as a gift from God. Not all of them pleasant perhaps, but all intended for our good. If he isn't responsible for them all, this causes a problem. Let me propose an alternative, which may combine the emphases of both positions described above. That is what I think Paul was trying to say in Romans. God is responsible for the fact that everyone sins. But despite how it may appear, his intention in this is merciful. He wants to prevent any possibility that we might look to ourselves for salvation, by making it clear to us what happens when we are left to ourselves. This is the implication I draw from Rom 11, culminating in 11:32. I am not necessarily asking you to accept my interpretation that everyone will eventually be saved. I realize that this is controversial. But I think one way or the other we have to come up with an explanation that takes account one way or another for both strands of Christian experience: God's ultimate responsibility for everything, and his intent to save us. I can't help thinking that what we see above is an opposition between two extremes, and that the real explanation must somehow take account of both emphases. --clh]
davem@watmath.waterloo.edu (Dave Mielke) (07/21/89)
In article <Jul.19.02.18.28.1989.16557@athos.rutgers.edu> bnr-fos!bnr-public!davem@watmath.waterloo.edu (our moderator) responds: >[I'm sort of surprised to see some of these comments. The traditional >view by those who believe in predestination is that the corruption of >sin extends to body and soul equally. Indeed spiritual sins such as >pride are probably more serious than those caused by bodily appetites. I am not concerned that much with what various proponents or opponents of a given doctrinal position have to say. I am far more concerned with exactly what the Scriptures, i.e. God Himself, has to say. There is a great danger in hanging onto a particular doctrinal position just because it would appear that there is a majority vote for its legitimacy. Since the Scriptures contain truths which are only revealed in the fulness of time, we can be assured that restudying them will tend to yield truths that were not eligible for revelation prior to now. The Scriptures most definitely teach that God's intentions are completely eternally merciful to those whom He has chosen. Romans 8:28 tells us "And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to {his} purpose.". The problem is that there is a popular misconception that God's intention is to be merciful to those whom He has not chosen as well. This is a belief that Satan would love to have all of us believe because it diminishes from what we would otherwise understand the wrath of God to be. He set a precedent for this kind of deception in the garden of Eden when he told Eve that she would not surely die if she were to eat of the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil. I suggest that we rely on the Scriptures, and not on wishful thinking, when attempting to determine what God's intentions are for those whom He has not chosen. Let us recall the parable of the wheat and the tares which gives us insight into this question. Matthew 13:24-30 tells us "Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is likened unto a man which sowed good seed in his field: But while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat, and went his way. But when the blade was sprung up, and brought forth fruit, then appeared the tares also. So the servants of the householder came and said unto him, Sir, didst not thou sow good seed in thy field? from whence then hath it tares? He said unto them, An enemy hath done this. The servants said unto him, Wilt thou then that we go and gather them up? But he said, Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them. Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.". Jesus decides to give us an explanation of this parable so that we can unambiguously know what its message is. He explains in Matthew 13:37-43 "He answered and said unto them, He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man; The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked {one}; The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels. As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world. The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity; And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth. Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.". Note that Jesus refers to the good seed as the "children of the kingdom", i.e. the children of God, whereas He refers to the tares as the "children of the wicked one", i.e. the children of Satan. If He really means this, and there is no reason to assume that He does not mean it, then we must assume that since God will treat His children as though they were joint heirs with His only begotten Son, He will treat those whom He considers to be children of Satan as though they were "joint heirs" with Satan. Since He absolutely without a doubt hates Satan and has no merciful intentions whatsoever toward him, we can be sure that He will have those same feelings toward those whom He considers to be the children of Satan. This does still leave us wondering if there really are people whom God considers to be children of Satan. In John 8:43-45 Jesus tells His audience "Why do ye not understand my speech? {even} because ye cannot hear my word. Ye are of {your} father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it. And because I tell {you} the truth, ye believe me not.". Using His common metaphore of planting, Jesus gives us further insight in Matthew 15:12-14 where we read "Then came his disciples, and said unto him, Knowest thou that the Pharisees were offended, after they heard this saying? But he answered and said, Every plant, which my heavenly Father hath not planted, shall be rooted up. Let them alone: they be blind leaders of the blind. And if the blind lead the blind, both shall fall into the ditch.". It may be worth noting that the doctrine of predestination, which is very clearly taught within the Scriptures, cannot possibly make any sense if He has elected every single human being to salvation. It only makes sense if we realize what He has really done. He has permitted an extremely formiddable enemy to rise up against Himself so that He can demonstrate His absolute supremicy and power as He overcomes it. He is, particularly as the end approaches, permitting His enemy to get so strong that it becomes, certainly from our point of view, completely indistinguishable from He Himself. Even with these unbelievable odds, He will still win precisely according to HIs preannounced plan and exactly according to His for-ordained schedule. We must also not lose sight of the other thing which God has done. We must realize that each and every one of us has started out life as a child of Satan, i.e. as an enemy of God. God, on the other hand, has chosen to rescue some of us from the infinitely awful fate which would be the inevitable consequence of us being found guilty before His judgment throne. This decision of love toward some of His enemies had to be a deliberately conscious decision on His part as any of us in a sinful state would be absolutely abominable to Him. He has shown us that true love is not just something that we fall into and perhaps expect something back from; it is, rather, a conscious decision to do our utmost to please someone else without expecting anything in return, even when everything the other one confronts us with is an endless list of attitudes, behaviours, etc. that we can in no way tolerate. Realizing that charity is an old English word for love, He tells us in 1 Corinthians 13:4-7 that "Charity suffereth long, {and} is kind; charity envieth not; charity vaunteth not itself, is not puffed up, Doth not behave itself unseemly, seeketh not her own, is not easily provoked, thinketh no evil; Rejoiceth not in iniquity, but rejoiceth in the truth; Beareth all things, believeth all things, hopeth all things, endureth all things.". If we husbands and wives, parents and children, etc. would recognize that this is the only way in which true love is to be exercised, a lot of the suffering that we force our families through, if not all of it, would be alleviated. Let us not forget exactly what God did to maintain perfect justice yet enable Himself to rescue us from eternal damnation. He took upon Himself that infinitely awful punishment that each one of us so rightly deserves to suffer for himself. Let us also not forget that each of us would suffer merely for his own sins and it would take forever, yet God, in the person of Jesus, suffered for numerous people the equivalent of an eternity in only three days. Which of us would ever be able to voluntarily submit ourselves to such an incomprehendibly awesome ordeal even for one single person whom we claimed to truly love? We must remember that He made us in His image; we must never attempt to make Him in our image, i.e. we must never try to force Him into a mold that makes Him easier for us to comprehend. We must obey Him, and not He us. Dave Mielke, 613-726-0014 856 Grenon Avenue Ottawa, Ontario, Canada K2B 6G3
davem@watmath.waterloo.edu (Dave Mielke) (07/23/89)
In article <Jul.21.03.43.46.1989.1919@athos.rutgers.edu> fibercom!lab@uunet.uu.net (Lance Beckner) writes: >Then why do we need to pray for His will to be done on earth as it is in >heaven? :-) We are always to pray that His will be done, but this does not necessarily mean that His will is that there be no sin in the earth. Romans 1:24 tells us "Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves:". Romans 1:26 begins "For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections:". Romans 1:28 further states "And even as they did not like to retain God in {their} knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;". God's will for this earth is to bring it into judgment after having removed all those whom He planned to save from it so that they would not be harmed. Since this is His will, it is for this to be done that we must pray. >As a matter of fact, I would go so far as to say that NOTHING happens that >God does not allow. I am sure that you would agree with me on that. Yes, I do agree with this statement whole heartedly. >I believe that this speaks of God's FOREKNOWLEDGE of Israel's rejection. >not His DESIRE for their rejection. Can you give me any biblical support >for the theory that God DESIRED for Israel to worship and serve non- >existent gods? It was God's will to sacrifice His only begotten Son at the hand of man, and to accomplish this He had to be rejected by man. Speaking of the new heaven and the new earth, Revelation 21:23 tells us "And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb {is} the light thereof.". Study this wording very carefully and you will see that the Lamb is the glory of God. God is telling us that the Lamb is the means through which He will display His glory to those with whom He will share eternity. I am sure that there will be no disagreement when I say, without going into a long proof, that the Lamb is a symbol of Christ as the perfect sacrifice for sin. If His perfect sacrifice for sin, i.e. His taking upoin Himself the equivalent of eternal damnation for those whom He has saved, is the means by which He has chosen to display His glory throughout eternity then we must assume that that was His plan all along. He could not have accomplished this without having allowed sin to enter into HIs creation and without allowing people to so absolutely reject Him. >I'm sorry, but this is a very bad argument. You are implying that God >wants us to sin so that we won't develop the sin of pride. In other words, >God wants us to sin so that we may be kept from sin. That doesn't make any >sense. You use the word WANT when I meant the word permit. During this phase of our lives we are to consider our most important task to be the spreading of His Gospel message to the unsaved people of this world. At the same time we must be on-going, living examples of the power of God. One of the major problems with unsaved people is their insistence on only concentrating on things with a short-term duration; the reason that sin exists is because people, without the grace of God, elect short-term pleasures with long-term and, therefore, easy to ignore consequences rather than short-term true patience with long-term intimate sharing of God's glory. If we were to be instantaneously made perfect then we would not be, from the point of view of an unsaved person (and even from our own point of view since we are still in sinful bodies), an on-going example of the power of God because we would not be continually conquering sin in our lives. Unsaved people would also pay absolutely no attention to us because they could not identify with us. Even Christ had to be identifyable with us. Hebrews 2:18 tells us "For in that he himself hath suffered being tempted, he is able to succour them that are tempted.". Hebrews 4:15 tells us "For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as {we are, yet} without sin.". The only reason that Jesus did not actually succumb to sin was because He had both a sinless soul and a sinless body. At present, we only have the luxury of having been given a new, sinless soul. If we were to be given a sinless body while still living among sin then we would become potential candidates for being perfect sacrifices and then Christ would not have been unique and preeminent. >If what you are saying were true, then God hates me (because I *DO* sin). >He also hates you and every other person on this planet according to your >statement above. For ALL have sinned (Romans 3:23). Although God hates a person who sins, (what exactly do you do with Scriptures like Psalm 5:5 and Psalm 11:5 which are part of God's Word and cannot be ignored to avoid this truth), His perfect righteousness will not permit Him to even see sins that have been paid for. If Christ paid for the sins of a given person then God no longer sees the sins of that person and, therefore, can no longer hate him. >Friend, If God hates all people that sin, then no one has a chance! > > But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were > still sinners, Christ died for us. Romans 5:8 (NKJV) As you yourself stated elsewhere in this response, >In case you didn't know, Paul is writing to Christians here. This is not a proof that God does not hate non-Christians. He loves those whom He has planned to save but not actually saved yet because their sins have already been paid for even if the actual bestowing of His gift of salvation is not complete yet. Speaking of John 3:16 which says "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.". >No, we don't "know" that. The Bible says that "God so loved the world" >NOT that "God so loved the elect (or the chosen or whatever)" This is a classic case where those who accuse me of reading things into Scriptures that are not there do so themselves. I'm not sure if you ever have accused me of doing that, but others who have also interpret this verse in the same way. This verse does not say that God "so loved all people"; it says that He "so loved the world". I know of no way to make the word "world" mean "people". This verse is telling us of God's love for His creation. God's great love for His creation could only refer to how He planned for it to end up; it would not refer to any intirim stages that it would have to go through. Romans 8:22 tells us "For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.". The creation is presently under a curse so God's love for it cannot possibly refer to its present state. There is no way to interpret John 3:16, even completely literally, as telling us that God loves each and every person in the world. The curse, by the way, under which the creation is currently groaning can be found within God's curse upon men through Adam in Genesis 3:17-19 which says "And unto Adam he said, Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: cursed {is} the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat {of} it all the days of thy life; Thorns also and thistles shall it bring forth to thee; and thou shalt eat the herb of the field; In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou {art}, and unto dust shalt thou return.". >That's right. He didn't bring the ones that rejected the Gospel to >salvation. But for the grace of God, even those who are now saved would not have voluntarily accepted the Gospel message. Ephesians 2:1-3 tells us of ourselves "And you {hath he quickened}, who were dead in trespasses and sins: Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience: Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.". We did not start out life in any different state than any other person who is as yet unsaved, including those who will remain unsaved and end up in hell where they will suffer the wrath of God. Speaking of Acts 2:47 which says "Praising God, and having favour with all the people. And the Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved.". >Those that believed should be saved. Those that didn't, shouldn't. The >invitation went out to all. But not all responded. Yes, but why did they believe? Please give God, and not those who believed, the glory! >Dave, let me close by saying that I think we are at an impasse here. I'm >sure that you will respond to this article, but unless you have something >new for me to consider, I probably won't respond. I don't see any sense >in us throwing scripture at each other over this subject any longer. (I'm >sure the rest of the group would agree.) I don't expect to change your mind, >and I KNOW that you won't change mine. It has been fun and challenging. I >hope that there are no hard feelings. I know that there are none on my part. You essentially obligated me to respond by asking me a few questions. Assuming that they were not merely rhetorical, I do not believe that it would be right to leave them unanswered. Be assured that I do in no way have any bad feelings toward you simply because we do not agree on this matter. It is only through open and honest discussion using the Word of God as a basis that any of us can hope to both cross-check his own thoughts and learn new things. If you wish to terminate this discussion then I shall cease. One last comment that I would like to make is that I have learned that I can never change anyone's mind no matter how hard I try. It is only God who can do that through His Word, and then only if that person is wrong and if God wants to correct his misunderstanding. For all we know, it may serve His will to have any one of us temporarily misled. We would all do well to remember that, since we still live within our sinful bodies, any one of us could be wrong on any given point. We must all remember that God is the only one who knows the absolute truth and 2 Peter 1:20 which says "Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.". Dave Mielke, 613-726-0014 856 Grenon Avenue Ottawa, Ontario, Canada K2B 6G3
lab@uunet.uu.net (Lance Beckner) (07/31/89)
In article <Jul.22.17.51.16.1989.26025@athos.rutgers.edu>, bnr-fos!bnr-public!davem@watmath.waterloo.edu (Dave Mielke) writes: > > Speaking of Acts 2:47 which says "Praising God, and having favour with > all the people. And the Lord added to the church daily such as should > be saved.". > >Those that believed should be saved. Those that didn't, shouldn't. The > >invitation went out to all. But not all responded. > Yes, but why did they believe? Please give God, and not those who > believed, the glory! I think you misunderstand my position. I do believe that it is God bringing us to Him that saves us. The scriptures teach that we do not seek Him out on our own. Rather, we respond to His seeking us out. I give God ALL of the glory for my salvation. I take NO credit at all. My only complaint about your stand is that it implies that God DESIRES to see people perish in Hell. I find no scriptural support for that. I don't have too much trouble with Jason Gabler's statement, that God knows which people will respond. Those are the people that He works with. These people could be called the "elect". I have no problem with that. > You essentially obligated me to respond by asking me a few questions. You are right. And I wasn't implying that you shouldn't respond. The only reason that I responded again, was to clarify the issue above. Although now, I must admit that you may have budged me slightly from my original position. Ephesians 2:8,9 tells us that we are saved by grace through faith. And that (faith) is not of ourselves, but is a gift from God. So that leaves us with a question: Why would God give the gift of faith to some, but not others? I know your answer. But I don't buy the "He loves some and hates others" theory. It looks like I will have to prayerfully study this issue some more. > For all we > know, it may serve His will to have any one of us temporarily misled. This is an interesting theory. On the one hand I believe that God really WANTS us to figure out what He is trying to tell us. But on the other hand, there *IS* an awful lot of disagreement among His children as to what His word really says. I'll have to think about this. -- Lance A. Beckner "Jesus loves me, this I know, INTERNET: lab@fibercom.com for the Bible tells me so." UUCP: ...!uunet!fibercom!lab