kilroy@mimsy.UUCP (Darren F. Provine) (07/24/89)
[ I don't put funny disclaimers and stuff in articles here because the moderator cuts them out. That's why there's no `Woof!' up there. ] [Then again, sometimes I don't. Far be it from me to remove Brandy's only contribution to this newsgroup. --clh] Suspect: Darren F. Provine Associates: Assorted family members, one church group, a fiancee named Nancy, and an amazingly literate dog named Brandy. Hobbies: chess, bicycling, discussing theology. Background: Raised by Southern Baptist parents, has attended the same church his entire life. Charged with: independent thinking. Account: Suspect has been known to doubt Inerrancy of the Bible, question Pauline authorship of some Epistles, use human reasoning to understand Scripture, insists on historical context when studying Scripture, allows possibility that people of other religions might have lessons worth learning, denies that Absolutely Correct Belief is necessary for Salvation, considers it possible that Jesus' death and resurrection is good enough for non-Christians. Straw-That-Broke-The-Camel's-Back: Suspect stated that he did not believe in a literal Hell. Was immediately told: "Then you can't be a Christian." Suspect's confession follows: "Well, why not?" (Suspect hasn't quite figured out confessing yet.) -=-=- The preceding is not a joke. This evening, I was told by a member of my own church that I cannot be a Christian because I do not believe in a literal Hell. His argument that I was wrong consisted mainly of non sequiturs, and the assertion that I am obviously not indwelt by the Holy Spirit or I would believe The Bible. I replied that I do believe the Bible, I just didn't believe him. That didn't help much. And I was thinking about saying "Well, if I can't be a Christian then what religion do you recommend?" But I figured that wouldn't help much either. -=-=- Now, with all due respect for Tradition, and the arguments that have been made by our Anglican contributors (anybody else noticed how well the Episcopal Church is represented here? Charley Wingate, Michael Siemon, and Nancy Tinkham all hail from there. That's gotta count for something...), one of the things I have liked about the Baptist church is that there aren't any creeds -- for the most part, you can read the Bible and understand it the way the HS speaks to you through it. I like this in part because, while what you believe may vary a bit, the lessons Jesus & Paul teach about what you should *do* are pretty clear. (Note that I am *NOT* saying "Pick up a Bible and start reading." A person who's studied the Bible and learned from others for a number of years and disagrees with what they've always been told is not in the same place as a person who picks it up, reads it, and starts their own denomination.) The way I understand it, there's no Hell. (Anybody wanna tell me how major a deal this is Tradition-wise?) For the most part, I keep some of my radical opinions to myself -- my comments don't always help other people, serving only to confuse them, and I don't want to make others stumble. I don't understand why they don't grant that same courtesy to me, though -- especially since the Bible they claim to read tells them to. -=-=- Today, somebody who once insisted that I was not reading the Bible as it was written, but was instead sticking in my own preconceived notions, was wearing a T-shirt that read "Jesus is the only way, the only truth, the only life. John 14:6" When I complained that the `only's weren't in the original, I was told that they were implied. When I responded with "Hey, it's no problem with me -- you can add anything to Scripture you want, and don't worry about those plagues described in Revelation," I was told that I wasn't being very considerate. But it's okay to tell me that I'm not indwelt with the Holy Spirit, and that I *CAN'T* be a Christian because I don't believe in Hell. -=-=- What's the point of writing this? I have no idea. For starters, any postings explaining the arguments about Hell to me will probably go unanswered -- I've heard them all, and the case from Scripture isn't nearly as solid as the Hell-advocates say. And any postings telling me that the "wisdom of the Lord is foolishness to the world," and that's why the arguments aren't solid, will also be little more than a collective waste of time -- the arguments against Hell don't convince you, but that's because it's the wisdom of the Lord and you just aren't inspired by the Holy Spirit. (I don't like doing the name-calling routine, but if people are going to defecate on the Golden Rule then maybe they need to be shown why that's a bad idea.) What I would like to know is if anybody can enlighten me as to why they think they are qualified to judge another man's servant. What do you gain by telling me that unless I agree with you exactly, I'm not a Christian? And even if I'm wrong, what does it matter? After you've convinced me of the truth, what am I supposed to do with it? I live my life the way Jesus tells me to (with the occasional screwup), and I will do so regardless of whether there's a Hell -- or, for that matter, a Heaven. And while I'm at it, does anybody else have anything intelligent to say? kilroy@mimsy.umd.edu Darren F. Provine ...uunet!mimsy!kilroy "Universalist: n. One who forgoes the advantage of a Hell for persons of another faith." -- Ambrose Bierce, _The Devil's Dictionary_ [who, me? --clh]
oracle@dartvax.dartmouth.edu (Brian T. Coughlin) (07/31/89)
[This is a response to Darren F. Provine's posting, talking about his experience in doubting some fundamentalist beliefs, e.g. Hell. > And even if I'm wrong, what does it matter? After you've convinced > me of the truth, what am I supposed to do with it? I live my life > the way Jesus tells me to (with the occasional screwup), and I will > do so regardless of whether there's a Hell -- or, for that matter, > a Heaven. --clh] :) I'm not sure if this is intelligent, but honestly... I wanted to stand up and applaud that posting of yours, Darren! I can only offer my own humble opinion, but I sympathize with you totally. Even in the Catholic Church, where fundamentalism is supposed to be unknown (*ahem*), I get a lot of flak about my belief in the possibility of no literal, pitchfork Hell. I get even MORE flak because of my disbelief in a literal, living Satan. And if you think THAT's bad... imagine everyone's jaws slackening as I told them of my belief in the possibility of reincarnation (sort of)...! Here was (is) my view: I've always had problems with the idea of "unworthy" souls being condemned to everlasting torment. It just doesn't sit well with the notion of a benevolent, all-forgiving, all-loving God. But picture the following: You live out your life unworthily, for whatever reason... weakness of spirit, bad family environment, whatever. You eventually die, and rise to Heaven to be judged before the throne of God. At this point, you are quite helpless and speechless with joy... because not only are ALL your beloved friends/family members (that had died before) there, but God Himself, the being who loves you the most of all, is there before you. But the infinite joy that you are experiencing is suddenly taken from you in one blow, as God speaks: "My dearest child... you may not join Us yet. You have not fulfilled your purpose on Earth, and you have not yet learned how to love in the way that I wished to show you. Therefore, though it break My heart, you must go away, and start your mortal life anew. Your beloved ones will await your return... as will I." Picture your mother, wife, girl/boyfriend, brother, or someone close to you that had died... a person whose death had all but shattered you. Now, at last, that person is before you... maybe only a little out of arms reach. And you're sent away. Wouldn't that be a sort of Hell? Wouldn't it be quite as bad as flames and pitchforks, and yet be merciful and just, giving you another chance? These were just MHO, but I like them... and I hope that they make sense. It allows me to serve God because I love Him... not because I fear Him. Take care, all. d d / Brian Coughlin ------- ----------- | society = 0 oracle@eleazar.dartmouth.edu d(works) d(goodwill) / "Don't differentiate between the good works of people. Since derivatives of mankind's goodwill are integral to a stable, constant society, differentiating will leave you with nothing."
smith_w@apollo.com (Walter Smith) (07/31/89)
[In article <Jul.24.02.26.09.1989.6898@athos.rutgers.edu> kilroy@mimsy.UUCP (Darren F. Provine) described his experience in doubting the existence of a literal Hell, in his Southern Baptist church. --clh] > one of the things I have liked about the Baptist >church is that there aren't any creeds -- for the most part, you can >read the Bible and understand it the way the HS speaks to you through >it. I like this in part because, while what you believe may vary a bit, >the lessons Jesus & Paul teach about what you should *do* are pretty clear. I've been attending a southern baptist church as well, although not on a regular basis (or as an 'official' member), and I liked it for the same reason as Darren. >What I would like to know is if anybody can enlighten me as to why >they think they are qualified to judge another man's servant. > >What do you gain by telling me that unless I agree with you exactly, >I'm not a Christian? > >And even if I'm wrong, what does it matter? After you've convinced >me of the truth, what am I supposed to do with it? I live my life >the way Jesus tells me to (with the occasional screwup), and I will >do so regardless of whether there's a Hell -- or, for that matter, >a Heaven. I do believe there is a hell, although I see no reason for others to have to agree. ANYONE who says to me, 'you must...' is suspect. If you know right from wrong, and choose right without being intimidated into it by the fear of hell, who is anyone to force it down your throat? I asked basically the same question on t.r.m....could anyone show me why I must believe all their groups doctrines to be saved...so far, no takers on it... This person, does he also say you must believe in the trinity, or any other particular doctrines? Walter [The nearest the Southern Baptists have to an authoritative confession (unless the recent attempt to purge "liberals" from the seminaries has caused things to change) is a document from 1925. The preface to the document makes it very clear that you don't have to believe everything in it in order to be saved. "They are not intended to add anything to the simple conditions of salvation revealed in the NT, viz., repentance towards God and faith in Jesus Christ as Saviour and Lord." Let us be generous, and suppose that that person who said you had to believe in Hell in order to be a Christian was simply expressing surprise, "Gee, I don't see how any Christian could believe this", not seriously attempting to judge Darren as being damned. --clh]