lab@uunet.uu.net (Lance Beckner) (08/09/89)
Dave,
I have a couple of questions for you concerning the predestination
issue. As I examine this, I see a couple of problems.
1) Evangelism: If God has already decided whom He wants to save
and whom He doesn't want to save, why should we bother to
share the Gospel with others. It would be a waste of time to
share the Gospel with someone that God hates, wouldn't it?
2) The Christian walk: Why should we walk in a manner that
pleases God? For that matter, why should we make a decision
to accept Christ as Savior anyway? If God wants to save me,
He will. Even if I decide not to accept it, I can not change
God's mind.
These are not flames! As I have said, I am looking into this
whole issue. I am trying to keep an open mind and heart. I see
these as being problems as far as your point of view goes. I am
hoping that you might be able to explain this, or show me where my
logic is flawed.
I would also appreciate the prayers of this group as I try to
determine God's truth with this issue.
Peace,
Lance
--
Lance A. Beckner INTERNET: lab@fibercom.com
FiberCom, Inc. UUCP: ...!uunet!fibercom!lab
P.O. Box 11966 FAX: (703) 342-5961
Roanoke, VA 24022-1966 PHONE: (703) 342-6700
[Note by the way that these questions are appropriate for anyone who
believes in predestination, not just Dave. Believing in predestination
does not necessarily commit you to Dave's position.
The classic answer to 1 is that in predestination God uses secondary
causes. That is, when God decides that someone is going to be saved,
he also sets up the way that this will happen. Although some of this
involves a direct presence of the Holy Spirit, people are also
involved. That is, God may have predestined that someone is going to
be saved through your teaching. God doesn't strictly speaking need us
to do his work. Think of it as a privilege he has granted us.
As to why you should respond to God when things are predestined:
again, predestination does not eliminate choice. It simply says that
God has arranged sufficient influences -- both through the direct
intervention of his Spirit and otherwise -- that the elect will choose
him. A real choice is still made. I guess somebody's belief in this
doctrine could cause his mind to get into a recursive loop such that
he doesn't choose, but this certainly isn't a to strategy that I would
recommend to anyone! --clh]davem@watmath.waterloo.edu (Dave Mielke) (08/12/89)
In article <Aug.9.02.40.10.1989.9606@athos.rutgers.edu> fibercom!lab@uunet.uu.net (Lance Beckner) writes: >1) Evangelism: If God has already decided whom He wants to save > and whom He doesn't want to save, why should we bother to > share the Gospel with others. It would be a waste of time to > share the Gospel with someone that God hates, wouldn't it? Jesus tells us as part of a parable in Luke 12:47-48 "And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not {himself}, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many {stripes}. But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few {stripes}. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more.". Those who sin and are not aware of God's commandments, i.e. those who have not heard the Gospel message, will be punished, but their punishment will not be as severe as those who sin and are aware of His commandments, i.e. those who have heard the Gospel message but whom God does not intend to save. Since we do not know whom God plans to save, and since we must obey His commandments, we spread the message to everyone. Those whom He intends to save will eventually respond to it. Those whom He does not intend to save will not respond to it, yet they have become aware of His commandments. This accomplishes at least a couple of things. The first is that He is proving that those whom He has not chosen do not respond. The second is that He is increasing His judgement against them, and thereby increasing the punishment that they will eventually receive. If He were to let us know whom He did not intend to save then we would, out of compassion, not spread the Gospel message to everyone. The reason we do is because He has told us that this is the mechanism through which He saves people, as we are told in Romans 10:17, which says "So then faith {cometh} by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.". Note that God has already worked out exactly whom each person will be saved through. Ephesians 2:10 says "For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.". If there were a person whom none of us felt the need to tell the Gospel message to then this would be an indication that God did not intend to save him. Fortunately even this is not left up to our flaky whims, though, because God can incline those people to walk into a church, listen to a radio ministry, or whatever. Note that He does offer us one comfort in the area of increasing His judgement against those whom He does not intend to save. If we sense that they will not respond or if they tell us that they are not interested, we are no longer under the commandment to continue trying to evangelize them. Jesus tells us in Matthew 7:6 "Give not that which is holy unto the dogs, neither cast ye your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn again and rend you.". >2) The Christian walk: Why should we walk in a manner that > pleases God? For that matter, why should we make a decision > to accept Christ as Savior anyway? If God wants to save me, > He will. Even if I decide not to accept it, I can not change > God's mind. 1 John 2:3-5 says "And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments. He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.". If we merely speak with our mouth, i.e. force ourselves, to keep His commandments then we do not really love God. We only truly love God if we obey all His commandments from the heart. This will not manifest itself as a voluntary decision to make ourselves appear more righteous before Him, but rather as an involuntary desire to be more righteous before Him. Another of my favourite Scriptures on this point is 1 John 5:3 which says "For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.". Note that any attempt that we make with our own efforts to appear more righteous before God is doomed to failure. Isaiah 64:6 says "But we are all as an unclean {thing}, and all our righteousnesses {are} as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away.". God has given us lots of commandments which He knows we cannot keep on our own. An unsaved person may give it a try in order to try to obtain salvation, but will invariably find that it is just too grievous, i.e. far too much effort, and will eventually give up. A saved person wants to keep them out of reverence for the agony that Christ suffered for him in order to obtain his salvation, i.e. "if He did all that for me then what possible reason would there be for me to want to commit more sins which would mean that He would have had to suffer even more to pay for them too?". A saved person also knows that, as one of God's elect, he has been given, among other things, the position of God's ambassador to Satan's dominion which is made up of all the people who are unsaved. Paul tells us in Ephesians 6:20 "For which I am an ambassador in bonds: that therein I may speak boldly, as I ought to speak.". An ambassador must do his best to accurately represent his kingdom to the one to which he has been dispatched. Fortunately, since his own efforts are not good enough, God gives him the ability to do the job which He has given him. We know from Ephesians 2:8 that even our faith in Him has been given to us by Him. Dave Mielke, 613-726-0014 856 Grenon Avenue Ottawa, Ontario, Canada K2B 6G3