[soc.religion.christian] God's love and sinners

sjreeves@eedsp.gatech.edu (Stan Reeves) (08/12/89)

Someone said (who am I kidding? -- most Christians say):
>God hates the sin, but not the sinner.

It's rather discouraging to see these kinds of cliches thrown out
all the time with no biblical support, particularly in light of 
passages such as Psalm 5:5 -- "You hate all who do iniquity."

Now, that passage seems clear enough (along with a number of others
provided by Dave Mielke and OFM).  However, someone objects with the
following argument:

>     God hates sinners + We are all sinners = God hates us all. 

Well, this is certainly no objection to the passage (that is, the major
premise -- God hates sinners).  If it is true that God doesn't hate us
all, then the objection calls into question the minor premise -- we are
all sinners.  That is exactly where the flaw is, in my view.  Now before
anyone gets the impression that I'm advocating perfectionism, let me say
that I'm *not*!  I think the issue hinges on the definition of "sinners."
A quick look through the Psalms will convince you that descriptions such 
as "sinner", "wicked", and "does iniquity" do not refer to everyone.  In
the context of Psalm 5, David describes the wicked and then says "as for 
me", implying that he doesn't fit that category.  I John teaches in a 
very straightforward way that there are those who "practice sin" and those
who "practice righteousness."  (See ch. 3.)  So, when we see phrases such
as "God hates sinners" in Scripture, I think we're safe in taking it to
mean "God hates those whose lives are characterized by sin."

If we left the topic with the idea that God hates sinners in an absolute,
unqualified manner, I think we'd be doing an injustice to the full array
of biblical data on the subject.  For example, Christ said:

	But I say to you, love your enemies, and pray for those who 
	persecute you in order that you may be sons of your Father
	who is in heaven; for He causes His sun to rise on the evil
	and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the 
	unrighteous. ...Therefore you are to be perfect, as your 
	heavenly Father is perfect.  Matt. 5:44-45,48

Christ teaches that we are to love our enemies.  He implies that we are
to do this b/c of the example that God himself has set.  That seems plain
enough.  Otherwise, Christ would be commanding us to do somthing which even
God himself doesn't do.  One more example, just in case there are still some
doubters out there :-) -- In Mark 10, Jesus was speaking with the rich young
ruler, who went away grieved and unsaved.  V. 21 says, "And looking at him,
Jesus felt a love for him."  Now it is possible that this man was saved
later on, but if that is so, we have no evidence of it that I know of.
Jesus felt a love for a man that was clearly unsaved -- and thus a 
"sinner" -- at the time.

How are we to reconcile these two scriptural strands of thought?  Personally,
I'd rather let them stand unreconciled than try to throw one strand away. I'm
not sure I'm capable of reconciling them, but I'll make a suggestion or two.
First, we need to avoid a false dichotomy between a sinner and his sin.  A
person's actions and intentions characterize him!  They're not separate 
from him.  His very character is an offense against God's holiness.  God
will judge the person himself and not just his sin.  Second, we need to
recognize that God exercises mercy even toward those who ultimately will
not be saved.  (See passage above.)  God does not delight in exercising
justice on his enemies.  It is a "strange work" for him (Isa. 28:21).  The
way I deal with the two strands is to recognize that God loves people
considered as his creatures, but he hates them considered as sinners (rebels
against God himself).  He does good to them b/c they are his creatures made
in his image, even though they are his enemies (Matt. 5:45); but he hates
them with respect to their sinful nature and rebellious state.

This may have muddied the waters more than anything, but I felt that a
balanced presentation was needed.  For anyone who feels it's relevant,
I believe strongly in election.

Stan Reeves

iba@ics.uci.edu (Wayne Iba) (08/14/89)

Thanks to Stan Reeves for a thougtful posting on "God's love (or lack thereof)
for sin and sinners".  I just wanted to add another thought into the pot.

As children of Christ, being washed in the blood, we are no longer "sinners"
but are free from the bonds of sin and death.  This is not to say that we
have no sin.  If we say that we make Him a liar (I John).  Instead, if we
do sin, we have an advocate with the Father and can stand before the throne
spotless and pure.

--wayne (iba@ics.uci.edu)