eesnyder@ncar.ucar.edu (Eric E. Snyder) (08/21/89)
I was give a pamphelet this afternoon in Sproul
Plaza. I would like to share it with the Net:
WHERE IS ABBIE?
Abbie Hoffman was a radical and wanted the world to know it.
He rejected all authority and chose a life of rebellion, sex, and drugs.
But rejecting God was his big mistake!!
The Bible says, "Don't kid yourself. God is not mocked. what you sow is what you reap."
Sure enough Abbie's sins caught up with him when he overdosed on drugs.
He learned the hard way that "the wages of sin is death."
On his way out, did he think to get right with God, probably not-- who can think straight on dope?
So, odds are, Abbie's in Hell today though God doesn't want anyone to go there.
Now what about you? The Bible says, whoever calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved."
That means, turn away from your sins, call on the Lord Jesus to forgive you, and God will help you get your act straight.
God loves you but don't expect Him to feel sorry for you if you go to Hell.
That is your choice not God's.
Thank you for listening; I think we can all learn from Abbie's example.
God bless you!
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Eric E. Snyder
Department of Molecular, I thought it was rain for a minute;
Cellular and Developmental Biology I thought the game had been called.
University of Colorado, Boulder
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[An interesting approach to evangelism. I've seen plenty of pleas to
repent before, but I think this is the first time I've seen one
mention a specific person who is (probably) in Hell. My first
reaction was to wonder why they would mention a specific name, given
our Lord's very specific instructions not to judge others. But on
further reflection, I can see that it's an attempt to penetrate the
drug culture by referring to a specific drug-related tragedy. Still,
I wonder whether this is the right way to do it. I wonder whether any
of our readers have have been working in any ministries related to
drugs, and would tell us about their experiences. --clh]rhg2@unix.cis.pittsburgh.edu (Rich Graham) (08/24/89)
In article <Aug.21.02.21.03.1989.5843@athos.rutgers.edu> boulder!boulder!eesnyder@ncar.ucar.edu (Eric E. Snyder) writes: >I was give a pamphelet this afternoon in Sproul >Plaza. I would like to share it with the Net: > > WHERE IS ABBIE? I found this essay very upsetting. It promotes the idea that people will be punished for their sins during their lifetime. Abbie Hoffman died as a result of his actions, not his sins. The fact that his actions may have been sinful was little more than a lucky coincidence for the writers of the pamphlet. Sure, I suppose he might not have turned to drugs had he turned to God first, but the fact remains that lots of people live long healthy lives rejecting God all the way. Turning your back on God doesn't greatly increase your chances of dying young. Abbie Hoffman's death may be a good reason to not take drugs, but I think it's a pretty poor reason to become a Christian. -- Richard H. Graham University of Pittsburgh - CIS rhg2@unix.cis.pittsburgh.edu
crowe@sci.ccny.cuny.edu (Daniel Crowe) (08/24/89)
In article <Aug.21.02.21.03.1989.5843@athos.rutgers.edu> boulder!boulder!eesnyder@ncar.ucar.edu (Eric E. Snyder) writes: >WHERE IS ABBIE? [. . . stuff deleted . . .] >On his way out, did he think to get right with God, probably not . . . We do not know how Abbie Hoffman will be judged. (God is his judge, too ;-) >So, odds are, Abbie's in Hell today . . . Hell will not exist until after the millenium, so he can't be there yet. [. . . more stuff deleted . . .] >God loves you but don't expect Him to feel sorry for you if you go to Hell. ??? Is this good evangelism, or even true ??? [. . . more stuff deleted . . .] I am bothered by the judgmental and overall negative tone of this approach to evangelism. I prefer an approach to evangelism that stresses the positive aspects of Christianity. I am a former drug addict and have worked with other drug addicts who were, and are coming to Christ and I have never, and hopefully, will never use this approach. Neither was this approach used on me. Try stressing the peace of mind that comes from faith in God. Demonstrate the enjoyment that comes from living a healthy lifestyle. Let people see the depths of joy possible when we relate to others with the love of God. Your fellow servant in Christ, -- Daniel (God is my judge) * "Everyone should be quick to listen, slow to physics graduate student * speak and slow to become angry, for man's City College of New York * anger does not bring about the righteous crowe@sci.ccny.cuny.edu * life that God desires." (James 1:19-20)
levy@ttbcad.att.com (Daniel R Levy) (08/24/89)
> Sure enough Abbie's sins caught up with him when he overdosed on drugs. > He learned the hard way that "the wages of sin is death." > On his way out, did he think to get right with God, probably not-- > who can think straight on dope? > So, odds are, Abbie's in Hell today though God doesn't want anyone to > go there. Which brings to mind something that bothers me very much. What about people who can't "think straight" due to no choice of their own? E.g., people born with severe organic brain damage. Yes, they too get the Lake of Fire, because they can not think to believe in God. As do babies that die before they can understand. Ah, predestination. Yes I'll follow you Lord, because I can. But I beg Thee, curb some of Thy eternal wrath against those who through no conscious choice of their own, can't. [I am unsure whether you are commenting just on that particular document, or whether you fear that this view is widespread. I think it's uncommon for people to believe that babies who die before they can understand automatically end up in hell. Certainly that idea would not be predestination. I certainly don't know what every Christian believes, but I think we can take the Westminster Confession of Faith as typical of those who believe in predestination. It says "Elect infants, dying in infancy, are regenerated and saved by Christ through the Spirit, who worketh when, and whee, and how he pleaseth. So also are all other elect persons who are incapable of being outwardly called by the ministry of the Word." (The former UPCUSA, which was the largest branch of the Presbyterian church in the North, added a "declaratory statement" to the Confession, saying that they believed that all who died in infancy were elect. I doubt however that this modification would be accepted by all those who believe in predestination.) Salvation is normally considered to be more a matter of the will than the intellect. I know of no reason to suppose that God's grace is incapable of dealing with people who have diminished intellectual capacity due to age or physical problems. --clh]
lab@uunet.uu.net (Lance Beckner) (08/27/89)
In article <Aug.24.03.01.22.1989.28390@athos.rutgers.edu> levy@ttbcad.att.com (Daniel R Levy) writes: > >Which brings to mind something that bothers me very much. What about people >who can't "think straight" due to no choice of their own? E.g., people born >with severe organic brain damage. Yes, they too get the Lake of Fire, because >they can not think to believe in God. Neither can they think to reject God. I believe it is our rejection of God that we are condemned for. John 3:19, "And this is the condemnation, that the light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil." If someone is brain damaged to the point that they can not accept Christ, they can not (IMHO) be held accountable for rejecting Him either. The same would go for those too young to understand. -- Lance A. Beckner INTERNET: lab@fibercom.com FiberCom, Inc. UUCP: ...!uunet!fibercom!lab P.O. Box 11966 FAX: (703) 342-5961 Roanoke, VA 24022-1966 PHONE: (703) 342-6700
hassell@ncar.ucar.edu (Christopher Hassell) (09/04/89)
Firstly, amen to Janet for her other responding article. Pamphlets of only
sinner-pointing content have a lie within them, that there are Respectible
people among Humans that are Obviously in less need of forgiveness. This is
not true, but we can easily recognize that Feeling as we see the media both
report about Criminal Activity XYZ and also see that act condemned with
everything that television and our democratic propoganda can throw at it.
<<< ...all from the same media cramming our eyes with New Fun X Beer, etc >>>
That, I believe is why that sort of attitude can be so vehemently supported,
regardless of the enlightenment and humility that the Bible provides for us.
I have seen some who were so blinded by their own goodwill to the Lord, so
impressed with their ability to be near God, that those who do not show
themselves equal appear contemptible to them.
# In article <Aug.24.03.01.22.1989.28390@athos.rutgers.edu> levy@ttbcad.att.com
# (Daniel R Levy) writes:
# >Which brings to mind something that bothers me very much. What about people
# >who can't "think straight" due to no choice of their own? E.g., people born
# >with severe organic brain damage. Yes, they too get the Lake of Fire,
# because
# >they can not think to believe in God.
# Neither can they think to reject God. I believe it is our rejection of God
# that we are condemned for.
# John 3:19, "And this is the condemnation, that the light has come into the
# world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their
# deeds were evil."
# If someone is brain damaged to the point that they can not accept Christ,
# they can not (IMHO) be held accountable for rejecting Him either. The same
# would go for those too young to understand.
# Lance A. Beckner INTERNET: lab@fibercom.com
# FiberCom, Inc. UUCP: ...!uunet!fibercom!lab
# P.O. Box 11966 FAX: (703) 342-5961
# Roanoke, VA 24022-1966 PHONE: (703) 342-6700
I agree very very strongly with this viewpoint. It is one of my strongest
pillars of Belief (not Faith, sadly).
I find many things that come to this and lead from this.
- In Matthew (I MUST search for that verse) and others is the parable of the 10
talents (egad...is that it?) and a primary message is also illuminated
better in one of the gospels. That message is that "From those who are
given much, much will be expected. From those who are given little, little
will be expected."
That is one place where I find Jesus speaking about those he is not capable
of reaching (not a useful topic to dwell on while preaching :-).
I believe that truly, as Jesus said to Thomas when proof of his
Resurrection was given, those who are given less to know him are more lucky
than those who see him and deny him, the only Ultimate Sin (in Matthew too).
This issue, by the way, is a pivotal one for the image of Christ and moreso
Christiantity, sadly. I have not begun to respond to all the people who see
any espousal of A Single Truth to be merely arrogance and void of the truth it
has. These people believe that those who do not have the truth or who have
never seen it will be punished as severely as rebels for their Ignorance alone.
It is very commonly accepted, and also very vague.
There is always an issue about whether it is EVER good to make a fence-line for
people to walk and believe in their safety, for one can always fall. ("You are
either for me or against me"). However, I find that the truth of God's
forgiveness has also a preventative side, BUT we don't know where his Line will
be drawn to pull those who can be saved toward him. One can also find the
cyncism that we all know when looking at Worldly Good Intentions and their
effects.
As for issues to address with this assumption:
- The whole aspect of third-world or rural or backwoods people comes in.
I believe that the sin of the world is what a person is "given" and the
righteousness that the person senses, as a gift from god, is also what a
person is "given". The beliefs about `savages' are, at times, very very true
and homocide and bloody warring can be common among even those who are
"at one with nature", though certainly not always. Many have learned peace
or are simply espousing a child-like attitude from their innocence.
Sin runs rampant and has its sway over multitudes. Faith can stop it and it
is not simple ignorance which lets people fall astray in His eyes, it still is
Sin. Jesus is the only "complete" cure and, I believe, the only one that
leads only towards righteousness instead of finding it like a path in the
night.
- The whole issue of pre-maturity and innocence, for children and others.
Adam and Eve didn't eat from the Tree of Sin, they ate from the Tree of
Knowledge (of Good and Evil). In our rebellious and inadequate minds, we
also found the Knowledge of Want and Satisfaction, of Pain and Worldly
Pleasure, and of Separated Love and Vicious Hatred.
I believe that children are very much a part of all that our faith can be
expressed in. They are those who are unstained, but who have potential, from
birth, and will find the potential to gain the knowledge and act on it.
Children have often been treated as Adults whose sins are merely mapped
downwards from Murder to Hitting, from Slander and Gossip to Calling-People-
Names, and from Subversion-and-Destruction to Talking-Back (as is defined by
us, as sinning adults). I find this to not be the true means of showing
children their sins and Savior.
I remember my own sheer irritation as a young child at Adults wanting me to
not do the Small versions of what I had heard they do. Remember? we all were
probably told to Not Speak or ignore such things as Adults hate in themselves,
with a wish that we might avoid them. I, myself, abhor the sight of a child
attempting to acheive the nastyness that Children are temporarily Free from.
We see our own perfected means of sinning as children try to, but not
complete yet, and we fear their bad copies as precursors.
Children are shown the same images as adults with these same types of Crimes
and, though certainly not directly, asked to want forgiveness. Children,
however lack many things that adults do and that is why Christ spoke of
"being as little children unto God" <sic?>. They have their wants that
REALLY DOMINATE their mind and teaching austerity is as difficult, but they
can and do abandon things, once knowledgible <not Just Told So> MUCH FASTER
than us, though they may come back to the same issue and fall again.
They are not White, but they have not made the stains during their lives that
we have upon ourselves. That is one thing that children should be held up for
and told to treasure, before they forget about their Created, temporarily-
protected innocence.
A last thing to notice is that Christ is, I believe, a Savior for adults only,
as He was from his life onward to now. Childhood should more have the
teachings and flavor of Judaism as was given in the pre-maturity of God's
People. It truly was this way that God dealt with the Jews. Children do not
NEED a savior in the same way we do, they need wise teachings and smaller
analogies to Christ. They need The Father, and The Son's teachings.
I babble on about this quite because a rift in Christianity constantly
developes around adolescence, around God's definition of a person's
adulthood. Children have lost their faith many a time becuase it didn't and
couldn't fit them, as well as their parents' possible sins against them.
- One last thing I see, that is much more a theory than idea. I find that the
damned will be those who truly have either rejected God or those who have
rejected his Will as they found Evil in their own time. Those who follow
Christ will be clothed in White, those who are in the Book of Life will
find their way back to God, those who are not will be lost to places in Hell
where <tangent> Satan will NOT rule, but will be punished above all others.
May we all find our innocence, not lost but given back to us when we ask :-> :->
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