lab@uunet.uu.net (Lance Beckner) (09/15/89)
> She has eliminated the Catholic church mainly because of the > trinity doctrine (influenced mostly by the JW's "Should you > believe in the trinity" publication.) She may be interested to know that the "Should you believe in the Trinity" booklet contains at least some misinformation. They quote Tertullian and Justin Martyr (among others); I got this information from Walter Smith on t.r.m. (also with some input from our moderator): And we, in like manner, hold that the Word, and Reason, and Power, by which we have said God made all, have spirit as their proper and essential substratum, in which the Word has inbeing to give forth utterances, and reason abides to dispose and arrange, and power is over all to execute. We have been taught that He proceeds forth from God, and in that procession He is generated; so that He is the Son of God, and is called God from unity of substance with God. For God, too, is a Spirit. Even when the ray is shot from the sun, it is still part of the parent mass; the sun will still be in the ray, because it is a ray of the sun-- there is no division of substance, but merely an extension. Thus Christ is Spirit of Spirit, and God of God, as light of light is kindled. The material matrix remains entire and unimpaired, though you derive from it any number of shoots possessed of its qualities; so, too, that which has come forth out of God is at once God and the Son of God, and the two are one. In this way also, as He is Spirit of Spirit and God of God, He is made a second in manner of existence--in position, not in nature; and He did not withdraw from the original source, but went forth. This ray of God, then, as it was always foretold in ancient times, descended into a certain virgin, and made flesh in her womb, is in His birth God and man united. The flesh formed by the Spirit is nourished, grows up to manhood, speaks, works, and is the Christ. (Tertullian - Apology) I have discussed briefly what has gone before; when I asserted that this power was begotten from the Father, by His power and will, but not by abscission, is if the essence of the Father were divided; as all other things partitioned are divided and are not the same after as before they were divided; and, for the sake of example, I took the case of fires kindled from a fire, which we see to be distinct from it, and yet that form which many can be kindled is by no means made less, but remains the same." (Justin Martyr, Dialogue with Trypho, chapter cxxviii) My wife and I just completed a four week "discussion" with a JW couple, so I may be able to offer some insight on their beliefs and theologies. Hopefully, you will be able to convince your wife that they do deny some very obvious Biblical truths. I assume that your wife has decided that the Bible has the answers to her questions. That is good. But I would encourage her to examine God's word for herself, rather than rely on the teachings of men. We should "Study to show thyself approved unto God, workmen that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth." (2 Timothy 2:15) As far as the Trinity goes: There have been some good points brought up on this newsgroup since your article first appeared. Unfortunately, the JW's can tear most of them to shreds; so I'll list those passages and then the JW's arguments. I'll also try to list some passages that the JW's are unable to explain away as easily. Finally, I will list some other areas (not nearly as major as the deity of Christ) in which your wife will at least be able to see that the JW's deny certain parts of scripture. Again, this is more for the benefit of your wife than to try to convince the JW's. John 1:1 may not be a totally lost cause. At least not when it comes to talking with your wife. The JW's claim that Jesus is "a god", a lesser God than Jehovah. This violates their own claim that there is only one God (Isa 43:10). They are quick to point out that Satan is referred to as a god-- the god of this world. This is because people, either knowingly or unknowingly, follow him. The question is, does Jehovah God recognize any created being as a god? I would think that the answer is "no". 1 Cor 5:8,6 tells us that even if there were many gods, for us (believers) there is only one God, the Father, and one Lord, Jesus Christ. Yet Jesus is called God by Thomas (John 20:28). Phil 2:6-8 was mentioned. This is a good one but the JW's refer to vs 5 which says "Let this mind be in you which was also in Christ Jesus", they say that even though Jesus was in the image of God (as we are created in God's image), He didn't try to be God. But I have read that the Greek word translated "form" in vs 6, actually means something like "the very essence". Not knowing Greek, I can't verify this. Gen 1:1, telling of God's act in creation was compared to Col 1:16, telling of Jesus' part in creation. This is enough evidence for most people; however, the JW's believe that the very first act of creation God did was to create Jesus. After that, He created everything else through Jesus and with Jesus. It boggles my mind to even think that God would put that much emphasis on a created being; but it doesn't seem to bother the JW's. John 1:3 was then used to show that nothing was made that Jesus did not make. Therefore, if He was made, He would have had to have made Himself. This is very good and I wish I would have seen that when my wife and I were having our discussions. 1 John 5:7,8 were used. Let's look at this (from my New King James): 7 For there are three who bear witness in heaven: the Father, ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ the Word, and the Holy Spirit; and these three are one. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ 8 And there are three that bear witness on earth: the Spirit, ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ the water and the blood; and these three agree as one. The parts that I have underlined are not in any ancient Greek manuscript, only in later Latin manuscripts. So the verse really says, "For there are three who bear witness, the Spirit, the water and the blood; and these three agree as one." Unfortunately, this just adds fuel to the "the trinity is a doctrine of men" fire. John 10:30 "I and my Father are one." The JW's will quickly say that this does not mean that the Son is God because John 17:21 says, "that they all may be one, as You, Father are in Me, and I in You; that they also may be one in Us, that the world may believe that You sent Me." Therefore, if Jesus being "one" with the Father means that He is God, us being "one" with the Father and Son would mean that we are God. Some passages that they can not explain away as easily (many of these have already been mentioned): Col 2:9 For in Him dwells all the fullness of the Godhead bodily. All is all, full is full. Would God let ALL of the FULLNESS of deity dwell in a created being? Terms that identify Jehovah in the O.T. and Jesus in the N.T.: 1. "I Am" a. Jehovah - And God said to Moses, "I AM WHO I AM." And He said, "Thus you shall say to the children of Israel, 'I AM has sent me to you.'" Ex 3:14 b. Jesus - Jesus said to them, "Most assuredly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM." John 8:58 The JW's translation says that "Before Abraham was, I have been" Thus, denoting the fact that He existed before Abraham existed, but not they He existed from old, from everlasting (Micah 5:2). But if John had wanted to convey that thought, the Greek would read "Before Abraham was, I was." 2. Savior a. Jehovah - "I, even I, am the Lord, and besides Me there is no savior. Isa 43:11 b. Jesus - "For there is born to you this day in the city of David a Savior, who is Christ the Lord. Luke 2:11 The JW's will immediately point to the fact that man is sometimes referred to as a savior. My question is, "When is man ever referred to as the 'Savior of the World' as Jesus is? (John 4:42)" 3. First and Last a. Jehovah - "Thus says the Lord, the King of Israel, and his redeemer the Lord of hosts: "I am the First and I am the Last;" Isa 44:6 b. Jesus - But he laid His right hand on me, saying to me, "Do not be afraid, I am the First and the Last." Rev 1:17 "...'These things says the First and the Last, who was dead, and came to life:...'" Rev 2:8 The pre-existence of Christ "But to you, Bethlehem Ephrathah, though you are little among the thousands of Judah, yet out of you shall come forth to Me the One to be ruler in Israel, whose goings forth have been from old, from everlasting." Micah 5:2 Jesus accepted worship, even though worship is only for God (Matt 4:10) [1] 1. And behold, a leper came and worshiped Him, saying, "Lord, if you are willing, You can make me clean." Matt 8:2 2. Then those who were in the boat came and worshiped Him, saying, "Truly You are the Son of God." Matt 14:33 Jesus is worshiped by angels (by the order of God the father) But when He again brings the firstborn into the world, He says, "Let all the angels of God worship Him." Heb 1:6 God (the Father) refers to Jesus as God But to the Son He says, "Your throne, O God, is forever and ever;" Heb 1:8 Jesus said that whoever has seen Him has seen the Father. "And he who sees Me sees Him who sent Me." John 12:45 Jesus said to him, "Have I been with you so long, and yet you have not known Me, Philip? He who has seen Me has seen the Father; so how can you say, 'Show us the Father'?" John 14:9 Stephen prayed to Jesus. And they stoned Stephen as he was calling on God and saying, "Lord Jesus, receive my spirit." Acts 7:59 John the baptist was the one sent to "prepare the way of the Lord (Jehovah)." But the N.T. is clear that he was preparing the way of Jesus. Mark 1:1-3 Jesus is omnipresent (present in all places) "...and lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the age." Matt 28:20 "For where two or three are gathered together in My name, I am there in the midst of them." Matt 18:20 He is omniscient (having all knowledge) 1. But Jesus did not commit Himself to them, because He knew all men, and had no need that anyone should testify of man, for He knew what was in man. John 2:24,25 2. ...And he (Peter) said to Him, "Lord, You know all things; You know that I love You." John 21:17 [1] The word `worshiped' in Matt 8:2 and 14:33 is the same that is translated `worship' in Matt 4:10. (proskuneo, pros-koo- neh'-o) Furthermore, this same word describes the action of Cornelius in Acts 10:25, "As Peter was coming, Cornelius met him and fell down at his feet and worshiped him." This action of worship or `obeisance' was rebuked by Peter. In Acts 10:26 we read, "But Peter lifted him up saying, `Stand up; I myself am also a man.'" Obviously, if the word translated `worship' simply meant paying respect for a high authority, such as a king, Peter would not have rebuked him. After all, being one of the Apostles (the foundation of the church [Eph 2:19,20]), Peter was definitely deserving of respect. We read of a similar circumstance happening twice in Revelation, once in 19:10 and again in 22:8,9. Both times John falls down at the feet of the Angel to worship. Both times he is told "Worship God." (The same greek word is used for `worship' in these two passages as is used above) It seems clear from these passages that this `worship' is much more than showing respect, and should be reserved for God and God alone. The fact that Jesus repeatedly accepted this worship, is evidence that He was either (A) God or (B) Violating God's will. We can rule out (B) because we know that Jesus Christ lived a life in complete harmony with the will of God the Father. Therefore, He must be God. Admittedly, there are two circumstances in the N.T. where this worship is offered to men and not condemned. The first is in Matt 18:26. I don't have a problem with this for two reasons: 1) This is a parable, and in this parable this "King" has the power to throw a man in prison and sell his family as slaves. 2) In this parable the king represents God. The second is in Rev. 3:9. Jesus tells the church of Philadelphia that those who say they are Jews but lie will be made to worship before their feet. I do not have a problem with this either. In the first place, Jesus is making these liars bow down before His true followers, possibly as recognition that those of that Church truly do belong to Jesus. In the second place, these are *not* believers. At no time in the N.T. is a believer permitted to offer "proskuneo" to either man or Angel. Yet Jesus accepted the same "proskuneo" from His followers repeatedly. I am out of time for today. Hopefully, I will be able to post something tomorrow that will show how JW's are wrong about some obvious biblical truths. God bless you, Lance p.s. I got a lot of my information from a posting on t.r.m. by Joe Applegate a while back (called "Apologetic for the Trinity"), also from Josh McDowell's book _Evidence that Demands a Verdict Vol I_. I just thought I would give credit where credit is due. I would also recommend picking up a copy of Walter Martin's _Kingdom of the Cults_. He gives a history of the Watchtower organization, their beliefs, and biblical support for things such as: the trinity, a literal hell, man's soul, etc. -- Lance A. Beckner INTERNET: lab@fibercom.com FiberCom, Inc. UUCP: ...!uunet!fibercom!lab P.O. Box 11966 FAX: (703) 342-5961 Roanoke, VA 24022-1966 PHONE: (703) 342-6700 [You say you have heard that the word "form" in Phil 2:6-8 could be translated "the very essence". The Greek is "morphe". It seems to have a variety of meanings. It may mean that here. However it can also be used for external form, as in Mk 16:12, so I wouldn't push this too far. --clh]