[soc.religion.christian] JW's and Scripture

lab@uunet.uu.net (Lance Beckner) (09/15/89)

As I mentioned in an earlier article, there are some obvious
Biblical truths that the Jehovah's Witnesses deny.  To me, this
shows that they are not the true church.

The Physical Resurrection of Christ:

The JW's insist that Christ's second coming occurred in 1914.  In
order for this to be true, He obviously had to have come
spiritually only.  The problem with this is that after Jesus
ascension, the angels said, "Men of Galilee, why do you stand
gazing up into heaven?  This same Jesus, who was taken up from you
into heaven, will so come IN LIKE MANNER as you SAW Him go into
heaven."  (Acts 1:11, emphasis mine)

So we know, as do the JW's, that as Jesus was after His
resurrection, so He will return.  The JW's therefore deny that
Jesus Christ's body was resurrected, and insist that He was raised
spiritually.  Scripture states otherwise:

Luke 24:39     "Behold My hands and My feet that it is I Myself. 
               Handle Me and see, for a spirit does not have flesh
               and bones as you see I have."

Here, Jesus makes it clear that He is more than Just a spirit.

John 20:27     Then He said to Thomas, "Reach your finger here, and
               look at My hands; and reach your hand here, and put
               it into my side.  Do not be unbelieving, but
               believing."

In these passages, one of two things is happening.  Either Jesus'
body was truly raised from the dead, or He was deceiving His
disciples.  Since deception is usually an attribute only used to
characterize Satan and those who follow him, I would have to say
that Jesus' Body was resurrected.

To the credit of the JW's, they come up with a good question
concerning this:  "But how is it that when He appeared to some,
they did not recognize Him?"

As always, the answer is found in Scripture:

Luke 24:16     But their eyes were restrained, so that they did not
               know Him.

Luke 24:31     Then their eyes were opened and they knew Him; and
               He vanished from their sight.

This of course, brings another question:  "How did He vanish from
their sight?" also, "How can He appear in a room when the doors are
shut? (see John 20:19).

My answer to this is:  "I do not know, but I accept it by faith
without throwing away parts of scripture that make Jesus out to be
a liar or a deceiver."

Other passages that show Jesus was bodily resurrected:

John 2:19-21   Jesus answered and said to them, "Destroy this
               temple, and in three days I will raise it up."

               Then the Jews said, "It has taken forty-six years
               to build this temple, and you will raise it up in
               three days?"

               But He was speaking of the temple of His body.

We also know that Jesus' return will be physical and visible:

Matt 24:29     Immediately after the tribulation of those days the
               sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its
               light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the
               powers of the heavens will be shaken.

     Has any of this happened yet?

Matt 24:30     Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in
               heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will
               mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on
               the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

     The tribes of the earth have not mourned at His coming because
     He has not yet returned.

Again, the JW's have a good question:  "How will everyone see Him
at once, if He appears over your house, how will those in Australia
see His return?"  Again, I do not know.  But if the Bible says
everyone will see Him, then everyone will.  "For with God nothing
shall be impossible." (Luke 1:37).

Jesus Himself warns us to beware of those that claim that He has
already returned.  He also tells us that those that say He has
returned will be very convincing (as the JW's are):

Matt 24:23-27  Then if anyone says to you, 'Look, here is the
               Christ!' or 'There!' do not believe it.  For false
               christs and false prophets will arise and show great
               signs and wonders, so as to deceive, if possible,
               even the elect.  See I have told you beforehand. 
               Therefore, if any say to you, 'Look He is in the
               desert!' do not go out; or 'Look, He is in the inner
               rooms!' do not believe it.  For as the lightning
               comes from the east and flashes to the west, so also
               will the coming of the Son of Man be.

Must You be "Born Again"?

The JW's insist that being "Born Again" is something that happens
at the resurrection.  Let's look at scripture:

John 3:3       Jesus answered and said to him, "Most assuredly, I
               say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see
               the kingdom of God."

John 3:5       Jesus answered, "Most assuredly, I say to you,
               unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he
               cannot enter the kingdom of God."

These two passages don't prove much one way or the other.  But
let's read on:

John 1:12,13   But as many as received Him, to them He gave the  
                              ~~~~~~~~
               right to become children of God, even to those who
               believe in His name:  who were born, not of blood,
                                         ~~~~
               nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of
               man, but of God.

Those who RECEIVED (past tense) WERE BORN (past tense).  Being born
again is something that happens when you receive Jesus.

1 Pet 1:23     having been born again, not of corruptible seed but
               incorruptible, through the word of God which lives
               and abides forever.

Peter here is addressing believers.  If I am not mistaken, God's
word applies to all believers.  Not just those in the first
century.  Again, he says that being born again is something that
has already happened to them.

I hope this helps.

Peace,
Lance
-- 
Lance A. Beckner                   INTERNET: lab@fibercom.com
FiberCom, Inc.                     UUCP: ...!uunet!fibercom!lab
P.O. Box 11966                     FAX: (703) 342-5961
Roanoke, VA  24022-1966            PHONE:  (703) 342-6700

jking@apollo.hp.com (John King) (09/18/89)

 
Lance A. Beckner                   INTERNET: lab@fibercom.com
writes:

>The JW's insist that Christ's second coming occurred in 1914.  In
>order for this to be true, He obviously had to have come
>spiritually only.  The problem with this is that after Jesus
>ascension, the angels said, "Men of Galilee, why do you stand
>gazing up into heaven?  This same Jesus, who was taken up from you
>into heaven, will so come IN LIKE MANNER as you SAW Him go into
>heaven."  (Acts 1:11, emphasis mine)
 
 That is not quite it.  JW do teach that his presence
(perosea--Math 24:3) began in 1914 when Satan was case out of the
heavens and down to the earth (Rev 12:9).  That was just the BEGINNING 
of the distress that we would experience in the end times before
the earth is cleansed.

>So we know, as do the JW's, that as Jesus was after His
>resurrection, so He will return.  The JW's therefore deny that
>Jesus Christ's body was resurrected, and insist that He was raised
>spiritually.  Scripture states otherwise:
 
>[various scripture sited "proving" he had a body when appearing to
>disciples -- Luke 24:39, John 20:27, etc]

We see many instances of angels materializing bodies and appearing
to men.  We even read of accounts of these "fleshly" angels eating
with men.  Correct?

Why do JW believe Jesus was resurrected as spirit?  To quote you,
as always, the answer is found in Scripture:
                
1 Cor 15:45,50 -- "The first man Adam became a living soul.  The
last Adam became  a lifegiving SPIRIT.... however I say that FLESH
AND BLOOD cannot inherit God's kingdom."

1 Peter 3:18  -- "...he being put to death in the FLESH, but
being made alive in the SPIRIT."

>This of course, brings another question:  "How did He vanish from
>their sight?" also, "How can He appear in a room when the doors are
>shut? (see John 20:19).

>My answer to this is:  "I do not know, but I accept it by faith
>without throwing away parts of scripture that make Jesus out to be
>a liar or a deceiver."

I can understand your ambivalence.


>John 2:19-21   Jesus answered and said to them, "Destroy this
>               temple, and in three days I will raise it up."
>
>               Then the Jews said, "It has taken forty-six years
>               to build this temple, and you will raise it up in
>               three days?"

>               But He was speaking of the temple of His body.


Correct. His spiritual body (1 Cor 15: 44)

>Matt 24:29     Immediately after the tribulation of those days the
>               sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its
>               light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the
>               powers of the heavens will be shaken.

>     Has any of this happened yet?

>Matt 24:30     Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in
>               heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will
>               mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on
>               the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

>     The tribes of the earth have not mourned at His coming because
>     He has not yet returned.
 

Is this literal or figurative?  If it were literal, as Jesus
appears coming down in a cloud over Manhatten, would the also
see him in the Outback of Australia?!

If a blind man says, "I see!"  Are we to believe that he is
literally seeing, or he perceives and understands? (please read
Eph 1:18)


>Jesus Himself warns us to beware of those that claim that He has
>already returned.  He also tells us that those that say He has
>returned will be very convincing (as the JW's are):

>Matt 24:23-27  Then if anyone says to you, 'Look, here is the
>               Christ!' or 'There!' do not believe it.  For false
>               christs and false prophets will arise and show great
>               signs and wonders, so as to deceive, if possible,
>               even the elect.  See I have told you beforehand. 
>               Therefore, if any say to you, 'Look He is in the
>               desert!' do not go out; or 'Look, He is in the inner
>               rooms!' do not believe it.  For as the lightning
>               comes from the east and flashes to the west, so also
>               will the coming of the Son of Man be.
 

See above.  JW teach that his 'perosea' has begun, not that he
has returned.  Also what miraculous 'signs & wonders' have JWs
performed???  We have never healed anyone, we don't speak in
tongues, we claim no miricles.  It seems to me it is a large
segment of Christendom that makes these claims.

>Must You be "Born Again"?

>The JW's insist that being "Born Again" is something that happens
>at the resurrection.  Let's look at scripture:

>John 3:3       Jesus answered and said to him, "Most assuredly, I
>               say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see
>               the kingdom of God."
>
>John 3:5       Jesus answered, "Most assuredly, I say to you,
>               unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he
>               cannot enter the kingdom of God."

>These two passages don't prove much one way or the other.  But
>let's read on:

>John 1:12,13   But as many as received Him, to them He gave the  
                              ~~~~~~~~
>               right to become children of God, even to those who
>               believe in His name:  who were born, not of blood,
>                                         ~~~~
>               nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of
>               man, but of God.

>Those who RECEIVED (past tense) WERE BORN (past tense).  Being born
>again is something that happens when you receive Jesus.

Good point, but let's look at the whole picture. Paul amplifies
by saying at Rom 8:19,23, " For the eager expectation of the creation
is WAITING for the revealing of the sons of God...[waiting for what?]
.but we ourselves also who have the firstfruits, namely the spirit,
yes we ourselves groan within ourselves while we are ernestly  WAITING
for adoption as sons, THE RELEASE FROM OUR BODIES by ransom."  In short,
in order to be reborn (or born again if you prefer), they must first
die.  That is when they become 'born again' adpoted sons of God.

Jack


[If you are serious about applying I Cor 15:44 to Jesus' resurrected
presence, then the difference may not be as serious as it appears.  I
don't think most Christians believe Jesus simply had his original body
unchanged.  At least I've always assumed it was in some sense
transformed, as indicated by his ability to come through walls, etc.
The term "spiritual body" in I Cor 15;44 seems to mean something that
is not pure spirit, i.e. it is in some sense a body, but the hardware
in which it is implemented is not the same as our earthly bodies.  If
this is what you mean by being raised spiritually, I wonder how much
this differs from the orthodox concept.  --clh]

AS.CEC@stanford.bitnet (Charlie Channel, Jr.) (09/18/89)

>Item: soc.religion.christian 1349,  15 Sep 89,  157 lines.    (11 items left)
>From: fibercom!lab@uunet.uu.net (Lance Beckner)
>Subject: JW's and Scripture

>As I mentioned in an earlier article, there are some obvious
>Biblical truths that the Jehovah's Witnesses deny.  To me, this
>shows that they are not the true church.

I'd not participated in earlier discussions.  I was invited to scan
this news group by Walter Smith, with whom I've had many enjoyable
discussions about the beliefs of Jehovah's Witnesses.  Having said
that:  You're entitled to your opinion.  Now let's get to some
scriptural facts.


>The Physical Resurrection of Christ:

>The JW's insist that Christ's second coming occurred in 1914.  In
>order for this to be true, He obviously had to have come
>spiritually only.  The problem with this is that after Jesus
>ascension, the angels said, "Men of Galilee, why do you stand
>gazing up into heaven?  This same Jesus, who was taken up from you
>into heaven, will so come IN LIKE MANNER as you SAW Him go into
>heaven."  (Acts 1:11, emphasis mine)

The question is whether here are reasonable scriptural grounds upon
which to think otherwise.  The answer is "yes."

Luke 21:27 states, "And they will see the Son of Man coming in a
cloud." Given the fact that Luke is the writer of Acts, one should
look to the Bible to ascertain the meaning of "coming in a cloud."

Since there are, apparently, so many who believe Jesus Christ=YHWH,
let us look assume that to be a scriptural fact and see the results.
Clearly, the tetragrammaton frequently appears in the Book is
Isaiah, so one only need look for the phrase therein.  Voila!
Isaiah 19:1 reads:

"The Oracle concerning Egypt.  Behold, the LORD (YHWH) is riding on
a swift cloud, and is about to come to Egypt; the idols of Egypt
will tremble at His presence, and the heart of the Egyptians will
melt within them."

Did YHWH manifest in the flesh, in fulfillment of that prophecy?
Doubtful.  For YHWH said to Moses, "You cannot see My face, for no
man can see Mr and live!" (Ex 33:20) Verse 5 of Chapter 34 states
YHWH descended in a cloud.  No fleshly manifestation.

Secondly, how can inert and dead "idols of Egypt" tremble in fear?
Fugurative language.  What one does find is that the manifestation
of YHWH's power was awesome and fearful to non-believers.  One also
finds YHWH's manifestation or physical presense to have been a
spiritual one, not fleshly and physical.

So, if the Bible is to be found soundly true, there must be some
scriptural explanation about how Christ made the situation
different.  I find none.  In fact, one finds just the opposite
(especially if one assume YHWH=Christ).

>So we know, as do the JW's, that as Jesus was after His
>resurrection, so He will return.  The JW's therefore deny that
>Jesus Christ's body was resurrected, and insist that He was raised
>spiritually.

Sorry, friend:  You do not understand what is being said and presume
JW's "know" for a sciptural fact that Jesus will be in the flesh at
his return.  That is incorrect.

"But someone will say, "How are the dead to be raised?  And with
what kind of body do they come." (1 Cor 15:35) ...  "So also it is
written, "The first man, Adam, became a living soul.  The last Adam
*became* a life-giving spirit." (verse 45) That is what is pointed
out on sound scriptural grounds.

Now, what scripture says that th Last Adam will *become* a judgement
making fleshly being again?  Compare 1 Pet 3:18.

>Scripture states otherwise:
>
>Luke 24:39     "Behold My hands and My feet that it is I Myself.
>               Handle Me and see, for a spirit does not have flesh
>               and bones as you see I have."
>
>Here, Jesus makes it clear that He is more than Just a spirit.

Seems to me he was saying that who and what they were seeing was
him.  There is no doubt that Jesus appeared in physical form *after*
his resurrection, and prior to his ascention into heaven.  That is
not the case *after* his ascention.  Compare Acts 9:3-6.

>John 20:27     Then He said to Thomas, "Reach your finger here, and
>               look at My hands; and reach your hand here, and put
>               it into my side.  Do not be unbelieving, but
>               believing."
>
>In these passages, one of two things is happening.  Either Jesus'
>body was truly raised from the dead, or He was deceiving His
>disciples.  Since deception is usually an attribute only used to
>characterize Satan and those who follow him, I would have to say
>that Jesus' Body was resurrected.

There is a third possibility you have not mentioned:  Jesus
materialized in the flesh.  That is, after all, a scriptural
possibility without attributing evil motives to him nor those who
find scriptural support contra your beliefs.  Compare Genesis 6:4;
19:1-3.  Angels have materialzed in human form.

>To the credit of the JW's, they come up with a good question
>concerning this:  "But how is it that when He appeared to some,
>they did not recognize Him?"
>
>As always, the answer is found in Scripture:
>
>Luke 24:16     But their eyes were restrained, so that they did not
>               know Him.
>
>Luke 24:31     Then their eyes were opened and they knew Him; and
>               He vanished from their sight.
>
>This of course, brings another question:  "How did He vanish from
>their sight?" also, "How can He appear in a room when the doors are
>shut? (see John 20:19).
>
>My answer to this is:  "I do not know, but I accept it by faith
>without throwing away parts of scripture that make Jesus out to be
>a liar or a deceiver."

Your answer is OK for you.  For Jehovah's Witnesses, that is not an
answer.  Because we know it IS possible for angels to materialize in
human form, it is not a stretch of faith to think Jesus could have
materialized.  And, it logically follows, that if he could
materialize, he could dematerialize and return to the spirit form.
Nothing scriptural is thrown away.

>Other passages that show Jesus was bodily resurrected:
>
>John 2:19-21   Jesus answered and said to them, "Destroy this
>               temple, and in three days I will raise it up."
>
>               Then the Jews said, "It has taken forty-six years
>               to build this temple, and you will raise it up in
>               three days?"
>
>               But He was speaking of the temple of His body.
>
>We also know that Jesus' return will be physical and visible:
>
>Matt 24:29     Immediately after the tribulation of those days the
>               sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its
>               light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the
>               powers of the heavens will be shaken.
>     Has any of this happened yet?
>

We can again turn to the Hebrew scriptures to get this matter
straightened out.  The situation happenened a couple of times in the
Bible.  At Ezekiel 32:7, YHWH pronounces judgement on Egypt and its
defeat:  "And when I extinguish you, I will cover the heavens and
darken their stars; I will cover the sun with a cloud, and the moon
shall not give its light."

Notice, also how Jeremiah puts it cocerning errant Jews of his day:
"Listen and give heed, do not be haughty, for the LORD has spoken.
Give glory to the Lord your God, before he brings darkness and
before your feet stumble on the dusky mountains, and while you are
hoping for light.  He makes it into deep darkness, and turns it into
gloom." (Jeremiah 13:15,16)

The NASB turns the phrase nicely at Isaiah 8:22:  "Then they will
look to the earth, and behold, distress and darkness, the gloom of
anguish; and they will be driven away into darkness."

The figurative language points to a lack of spiritual light from the
True Source of salvation.  In English, one says, "his future is
bright." It means there is more than a hope for success and
achievement.  On the other hand, "deep darkness" it seems to be a
lack of spiritual enlightenment, a river of distress and a torrent
of gloom.  No hope!

Now, since you think YHWH=Jesus, why would one think the scriptures
mean something else?

>Matt 24:30     Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in
>               heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will
>               mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on
>               the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
>
>     The tribes of the earth have not mourned at His coming because
>     He has not yet returned.

The entire earth IS mourning over the fact that it and its
inhabitant are dying and being destroyed due to disease, war,
famine, poverty, pollution and the various ills that typify this
century in which we are living.  As for those seeing him at his
return, Why did Paul write:  [S]o Christ also, having been offered
once to bear the sins of many, shall appear a *second* time for
salvation without reference to to sin, to those who eagerly await
Him"?  (Hebrews 9:28)

Those scriptures, including Matthew 24:30) do not seem to indicate
everyone will actually see Christ in the flesh.  There's a sign in
heaven.  The earth mourns.  Those with spiritual insight see
Christ's invisible coming "on the clouds of heaven." Others may see
the manifestation of his coming, and may not recognize it for what
it is.

>Again, the JW's have a good question:  "How will everyone see Him
>at once, if He appears over your house, how will those in Australia
>see His return?"  Again, I do not know.  But if the Bible says
>everyone will see Him, then everyone will.  "For with God nothing
>shall be impossible." (Luke 1:37).
>
>Jesus Himself warns us to beware of those that claim that He has
>already returned.  He also tells us that those that say He has
>returned will be very convincing (as the JW's are):
>
>Matt 24:23-27  Then if anyone says to you, 'Look, here is the
>               Christ!' or 'There!' do not believe it.  For false
>               christs and false prophets will arise and show great
>               signs and wonders, so as to deceive, if possible,
>               even the elect.  See I have told you beforehand.
>               Therefore, if any say to you, 'Look He is in the
>               desert!' do not go out; or 'Look, He is in the inner
>               rooms!' do not believe it.  For as the lightning
>               comes from the east and flashes to the west, so also
>               will the coming of the Son of Man be.

Now if he's not physically present in the desert (don't bother
packing and going to the country or the Sahara) and he ain't in a
great metropolitan city in an exclusive suburban home or a room in a
ghetto, where on earth is he?

Lightning is seen in the heavens.  Moreover, it is widely visible to
many over a vast region or area.  And it appears in a flash.

>Must You be "Born Again"?
>
>The JW's insist that being "Born Again" is something that happens
>at the resurrection.  Let's look at scripture:

You do not know and you have negligently misrepresented what
Jehovah's Witnesses believe.  Take my word for it.  Sorry you
expended time refuting your own misunderstanding.

>I hope this helps.  >
>Peace,
>Lance
>--
>Lance A. Beckner                   INTERNET: lab@fibercom.com
>FiberCom, Inc.                     UUCP: ...!uunet!fibercom!lab
>P.O. Box 11966                     FAX: (703) 342-5961
>Roanoke, VA  24022-1966            PHONE:  (703) 342-6700

Peace, Lance.

Charlie

[I still wish we could get a coherent account of the relationship that
the JW's see between the Father, the Son, and Jesus, i.e.  their
doctrines of God and the Incarnation.  I don't have much of an idea of
what they believe, although I know some things that obviously they do
not believe.  But surely there must be some more content to JW belief
than that they don't believe in the Trinity.

By the way, saying YHWH=Jesus is not a very good characterization of
the Trinitarian doctrine.  It fails to take into account the
indirectness introduced by the doctrine of the Incarnation.  The Logos
took to itself a human life, but that human life maintains its
integrity as human.  YHWH=Jesus looks to me like a Docetic view.
--clh]