kilroy@mimsy.UUCP (Nancy's Sweetie) (09/25/89)
During a discourse on the Sabbath Day over in talk.religion.misc, David Buxton quotes a tract written by Erling Calkins (which I am supposing is representative of David's own views). I think that some of the points made by Mr. Calkins could use elaboration, so here we go... The tract is in the form of a question-answer session between a person and God, with God's side given from Scripture quotations. In reply to a pair of queries about abolishing the Sabbath Day, Mr. Calkins cites Matthew 5:17-18. > "Do not suppose that I have come to do away with the law or the prophets. > I have not come to do away with them, but to enforce them. I tell you, > as long as heaven and earth endure, not one dotting or an 'i' or > crossing of a 't' will be dropped from the law until it is all observed." Now, lots of people have quoted these verses at me in the past, by way of showing that since I don't keep one of the Old Testament rules, I am an Obviously Defective Christian. The problem I have with that is that absolutely NONE of the people who have ever done this keeps all of the rules themselves. Zero. Nada. Zip. Nobody. (The closest person slipped up on Leviticus 19:19 and, oddly enough, Exodus 20:9. So close and yet so far...) So, since David sees fit to use this verse as enforcing Sabbath worship, I feel justified in asking whether he keeps every single rule listed in the Old Testament. If not, then what are you complaining at us about? Assuming for the moment that David does, in fact, observe every last rule listed in the Old Testament (which would be first in my experience), his article brings to mind some other questions: 1) In Romans 14, Paul specifically comments on people who consider some days special and those who consider every day alike. I happen to be one of the latter, and in many of your postings you have made it quite clear that you judge my opinion to be either uninformed or dishonestly held. You have also made it apparent that you look down on those who observe Sunday. So I ask you the question that Paul asked the Romans: "You, then, why do you judge your brother? Or why do you look down on your brother?" 2) In Acts 15 we have an account of problems in the early Church over a similar issue, circumcision of believers. A detachment was sent to Jerusalem for an official ruling (comments about what this means for congregational churches will be deleted 8-). The Council's decision essentially amounts to a dismissal of circumcision for the Gentile believers of the church. Given your apparent belief that "none of the law will pass away," do you believe that the Council of Jerusalem acted wrongly in refusing to require the Gentiles be circumcised? If not, how do you reconcile their decision with your own opinion that the law is still in effect? 3) The book of Galatians primarily deals with members of the Church who were teaching that one must keep OT rules to be a Christian (again, the specific issue was circumcision). Paul states that he opposed Peter to his face (3:11), as Peter was teaching Gentiles that they must observe the OT Law, and Paul states that "they were not acting in line with the truth of the gospel." I don't mean to be too heavy-handed here, but I cannot see any difference between your constant articles about the Sabbath Day and Peter's actions described in Galatians 3. Do you see any difference, and if so, what is it? -=-=- Finally, I want to make it clear that I have no complaint with people who consider the Sabbath sacred. I personally would prefer it if the Church had left things alone, but I'm not going to state that they were wrong in what they did. My complaint is not with David's personal observance, but with his articles that insist I must observe the way he does. I do not feel that he has any right to make such judgements, and I find his willingness to do so anyway highly irritating. kilroy@mimsy.umd.edu Darren F. Provine ...uunet!mimsy!kilroy "Sabbath, n. A weekly festival having its origin in the fact that God made the world in six days and was arrested on the seventh. Among the Jews observance of the day was enforced by a Commandment of which this is the Christian version: "Remember the seventh day to make thy neighbor keep it wholly." To the Creator it seemed fit and expedient that the Sabbath should be the last day of the week, but the Early Fathers of the Church held other views." -- Ambrose Bierce, _The Devil's Dictionary_
davidbu@tekigm2.men.tek.com (David Buxton) (09/27/89)
[Apparently we are moving a discussion from talk.religion.misc here. It started with a posting quoting an article by the Catholic Mirror in the 1890's. The Mirror claimed that Protestants were implicitly santioning tradition over Scripture in worshipping on Sunday. That's the article referring to in the first set of widgets. The second set of widgets refers to a response by David, which put together a set of Biblical passages showing that worship on the Sabbath was commanded in the Law and that nothing happened to prevent this from being binding on us. I believe the single widgets are all from Darren, and the double widgets are from David. --clh] In article <Sep.24.17.50.45.1989.5308@athos.rutgers.edu>, kilroy@mimsy.UUCP (Darren Provine) writes: > > During a discourse on the Sabbath Day over in talk.religion.misc, David > Buxton quotes a tract written by Erling Calkins (which I am supposing is > representative of David's own views). I think that some of the points > made by Mr. Calkins could use elaboration, so here we go... I do NOT subscribe to the arrogant attitude of the "Catholic Mirror" quotes that I posted. I do subscribe to what Erling Calkins had to say. And I do want to respect your different view on this subject. Although we see things differently my objective is that we do so agreeably and as friends. I hold out no condemnation in the event that your views remain unchanged. >The tract is in the form of a question-answer session between a person and >God, with God's side given from Scripture quotations. In reply to a pair of >queries about abolishing the Sabbath Day, Mr. Calkins cites Matthew 5:17-18. NIV - "Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. 18 - "I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. 19 - "Anyone who breaks one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. 20 - "For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven." (Matt. 5:17-20) >> "Do not suppose that I have come to do away with the law or the prophets. >> I have not come to do away with them, but to enforce them. I tell you, >> as long as heaven and earth endure, not one dotting or an 'i' or >> crossing of a 't' will be dropped from the law until it is all observed." >Now, lots of people have quoted these verses at me in the past, by way of >showing that since I don't keep one of the Old Testament rules, I am an >Obviously Defective Christian. "Defective Christian" sounds awfully harsh to me. That is not language that I would choose to use upon anyone. Have I come across that way to you? If so I do hasten to appologize. >The problem I have with that is that absolutely NONE of the people who have >ever done this keeps all of the rules themselves. Zero. Nada. Zip. >Nobody. >(The closest person slipped up on Leviticus 19:19 and, oddly enough, > Exodus 20:9. So close and yet so far...) It appears that you would like to combine the laws of man with the laws of God and then say that the total of it all cannot be kept or that the homogeneous mass has been done away with. Jesus clearly had no patience with the Jewish Mishna and said: "They worship me in vain; their teachings are but the commandments of men. You have let go of the commandments of God and are holding on to the traditions of men. And he said to them: 'You have a fine way of setting aside the commandments of God in order to observe your own traditions!" (Mark 7:7-9) >So, since David sees fit to use this verse as enforcing Sabbath worship, I >feel justified in asking whether he keeps every single rule listed in the >Old Testament. Let me identify some of the rules, or laws, of Old Testament: * Ten Commandments - Both the O.T. and the N.T. declare the Decalogue to be perfect and a delight and so on. The Ten Commandments are all that we have in the Bible that was written by the hand of God. God's Ten Commandments contain absolutely no statements of penalty or punishment. The Decalogue is sort of like the Constitution and all law is subservient to it. * Moses Administrative laws - These are the laws that set out the penalties. These are the laws that both the O.T. and the N.T. declare to be against us. Many of these laws simply deal with camp administration. The laws and rules of Moses were ordinances and certainly not 'constitutional' or 'eternal' as are the Ten Commandments. * And of course there are the health laws of Moses. With many of these it is difficult to determine which are ceremonial and pointing to the cross and which are health laws that we should take into consideration today. Each person must judge for himself on this - guided by the Holy Spirit. Moses Laws "Against us" "And Moses wrote this law . . . And it came to pass, when Moses had made an end of writing the words of this law in a book, until they were finished, That Moses commanded the Levites, which bare the ark of the covenant of the Lord, saying, Take this book of the law, and put it in the side of the ark of the covenant of the Lord your God, that it may be there for a witness against thee" (Deut 31:9,24-26) "But there rose up certain of the sect of the Pharisees which believed, saying, That it was needful to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses." (Acts 15:5) "Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross" (Col. 2:14) Note the use of the words "against us" and the word "ordinances". I know of nobody who claims that the Ten Commandments are ordinances. They are not against us. The rules and laws of Moses certainly did include statements of punishment and were very much written against the law breaker. Generally we think of ordinances in terms of such rules as "City Ordinances". Ordinances have a limited jurisdiction. God's Law is eternal. God's law and Moses' law are not the same. I'd be glad to offer more proof of this at your request. After quoting the tenth commandment of the decalogue in Romans 7:7, Paul wrote these words, "Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good" (verse 12). Then he continued in verse 14, "For we know that the law is spiritual . . . " Also, let us consider the Mishna which limited a Sabbath days journey and stated that a hanky in the pocket was a sin but if sewn to the garment it was no longer a burden. If you understand the Mishna, then you can recognize when Jesus speaks against it: "Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You give a tenth of your spices--mint, dill and cummin. But you have neglected the more important matters of the law--justice, mercy and faithfulness. You should have practiced the latter, whithouout neglecting the former." (Matt. 23:23) (See Luke 12:42) "They worship me in vain; their teachings are but the commandments of men. You have let go of the commandments of God and are holding on to the traditions of men. And he said to them: 'You have a fine way of setting aside the commandments of God in order to observe your own traditions!" (Mark 7:7-9) "Thus you nullify the word of God by your tradition that you have handed down. And you do many things like that.". (Mark 7:13) Sabbath Days journey between Mt. Olivet and Jerusalem - 3,100 ft. (Acts 1:12) "Since they did not know the righteousness that comes from God and sought to establish their own, they did not submit to God's righteousness." (Rom. 10:3) The Mishna was an elaborate and detailed code on how the law was to kept. Every imaginable detail was spelled out in detail. There was no need to consult with God on how God's Law was to be kept. What should have been the work of the Holy Spirit was a highly codified work of man. And Jesus clearly had no patience with it. >If not, then what are you complaining at us about? I have nothing to complain about if you choose not to keep the laws of Moses, or the Mishna of old or a New Mishna, or any rules and regulations of a religious nature that man has invented. Jesus made it clear that the keeping of such rules are all in vain. Consider the following text: "For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven." (Matt. 5:20) >Assuming for the moment that David does, in fact, observe every last rule >listed in the Old Testament (which would be first in my experience), his >article brings to mind some other questions: >1) In Romans 14, Paul specifically comments on people who consider some > days special and those who consider every day alike. I happen to be > one of the latter, and in many of your postings you have made it quite > clear that you judge my opinion to be either uninformed or dishonestly > held. You have also made it apparent that you look down on those who > observe Sunday. So I ask you the question that Paul asked the Romans: > "You, then, why do you judge your brother? Or why do you look down on > your brother?" From other texts I find that this text deals with ceremonial days that point to the cross, these were refered to sabbaths and/or feast days and did not necessarily fall on the 7th day of the week. There are enough other texts by Paul that uphold the Sabbath that I do not see this text as doing away with the Sabbath. "You are observing special days and months and seasons and years! I fear for you, that somehow I have wasted my efforts on you." (Gal. 4:10,11) Under the old ceremonial law these sabbaths and feast days had a purpose; that of pointing to Jesus who was to come. At the moment Jesus died the lamb about to be slain on the alter escaped and the curtain was torn in two. The ceremonial conventions had, at that moment, been fulfilled. I will also accept your text your way. If you do not accept the Sabbath the way I do and if you read your Bible and are convinced differently than I am convinced then let me be clear - I do NOT wish to condemn you or to stand in judgement over you. I much appreciate this opportunity to let you know how I believe. At the same time I certainly DO want to respect your right to believe differently. I thank you for pointing out that I appear to be looking down my nose at my Christian Brothers. That gives me a chance to state that I do not wish to come across that way. I have some strong convictions that I subscribe to. At the same time I most certainly want to allow that you will not see everything my way. I do not look down upon you. If after all that I say you remain unconvinced then I stand ready to respect you for your own personal findings on these matters. If I continue to come across as looking down upon you then please do point it out to me again so that I can correct my apparant attitude. >2) In Acts 15 we have an account of problems in the early Church over a > similar issue, circumcision of believers. A detachment was sent to > Jerusalem for an official ruling (comments about what this means for > congregational churches will be deleted 8-). The Council's decision > essentially amounts to a dismissal of circumcision for the Gentile > believers of the church. > Given your apparent belief that "none of the law will pass away," do > you believe that the Council of Jerusalem acted wrongly in refusing > to require the Gentiles be circumcised? > If not, how do you reconcile their decision with your own opinion that > the law is still in effect? I have already dealt with this by pointing out that the New Testament makes is clear that the Laws of Moses, that call out punishments against us, is done away with and that the Eternal Law of God - the Ten Commandments - are consistently upheald by the New Testament. Circumcision falls under the Mosaic laws. Nowhere in the Decalogue do I find any mention of circumcision or any other ceremonial law or administrative ordinance, law, or rules. On one hand we have a set of ordinances and on the other hand the cosmic constitution, the eternal law of God. >3) The book of Galatians primarily deals with members of the Church who > were teaching that one must keep OT rules to be a Christian (again, > the specific issue was circumcision). Paul states that he opposed > Peter to his face (3:11), as Peter was teaching Gentiles that they > must observe the OT Law, and Paul states that "they were not acting > in line with the truth of the gospel." > I don't mean to be too heavy-handed here, but I cannot see any > difference between your constant articles about the Sabbath Day and > Peter's actions described in Galatians 3. Do you see any difference, > and if so, what is it? Again, I see a very distinct difference between the administrative, ceremonial and punitive laws of Moses vs the Ten Commandments which Paul does indeed uphold and so did Peter. I'd be glad to provide a more thorough proof of this at your request. >-=-=- >Finally, I want to make it clear that I have no complaint with people who >consider the Sabbath sacred. I personally would prefer it if the Church >had left things alone, but I'm not going to state that they were wrong in >what they did. >My complaint is not with David's personal observance, but with his articles >that insist I must observe the way he does. I do not feel that he has any >right to make such judgements, and I find his willingness to do so anyway >highly irritating. Again, thank you for the caution against coming across as standing in judge- ment over the day on which you choose to worship. I do want to make my views clear. But I also want to make allowance for your right to see it another way. And I do not wish to imply any lack of intelligence upon anyones part. I remain convinced of my views. At the same time I do appologize for being insistant or an irritation if that is what I have been to you. You have provided me with an excellant opportunity to clarify my views. I do very much hope that in my reply I have not further irritated you. I have not been in the least bit offended by such comments. You have been polite and fair and I have been delighted to reply. Friend, (My attitude) Dave
zach@drutx.att.com (Zach Lewis) (09/27/89)
In article <Sep.24.17.50.45.1989.5308@athos.rutgers.edu>, kilroy@mimsy.UUCP (Nancy's Sweetie) writes: > > ..stuff deleted .. > The problem I have with that is that absolutely NONE of the people who have > ever done this keeps all of the rules themselves. Zero. Nada. Zip. > > Nobody. You should add that nobody you know keeps all the rules. Does it matter ? If nobody kept the speed limit would that mean there is no law ? > > (The closest person slipped up on Leviticus 19:19 and, oddly enough, > Exodus 20:9. So close and yet so far...) > > So, since David sees fit to use this verse as enforcing Sabbath worship, I > feel justified in asking whether he keeps every single rule listed in the > Old Testament. The above statement is for what purpose ? Anyway ! There are many laws in the Bible 7 to be exact. God wrote one law with his own finger read it for yourself Deuteronomy 4:13; 10:3,4. There are many laws that God gave to moses to write but God wrote his law in stone to show us something. WHY ? I want to make it clear that the law saves nobody ! God gaves his law that we might live in peace and harmony. Deuteronomy 4:40. The law is perfect. Psalms 19:7. Does it say perfect for the Jews only ? IF someone want to know about the law I say read Psalms 119. I can show you text after text where the 10 Commandments written by God are binding and should be kept, but they don't save, they show that you really LOVE God. John 14:21. God wrote one law in the Bible and man continues to try to do away with it. WHY ? > > If not, then what are you complaining at us about? > I didn't see his article and don't know if he complain or shared with you that God has a day that he wants those who love him to keep. The day was given at creation to remind us of what God has done. If you love God you will want to do what God says. > > My complaint is not with David's personal observance, but with his articles > that insist I must observe the way he does. I do not feel that he has any > right to make such judgements, and I find his willingness to do so anyway > highly irritating. > It is your choice ! Zac