dj022184@longs.lance.colostate.edu (Douglas Jenkins) (09/27/89)
This probably gets discussed about this time every year, but I'm new to the net, so here goes. Something has been brought to my attention but I never really considered it seriously until this year, and that is the subject of Halloween. I'm told that the Bible says we aren't supposed to associate ourselves (children of God) with evil spirits (ghosts, goblins, etc). Well, that is pretty much what Halloween is all about, right? The idea used to be to put out jack-o-lanterns and dress up in costumes to appease the evil spirits. I understand that now its little more than a tradition, but the basic concept still remains. We still carve scary faces in pumpkins and run around in scary costumes. Should we give up this tradition in order to obey God's will? Is it okay to dress up in clown outfits instead of ghosts and goblins? I would appreciate your opinions on this subject as well as any bible verses that might help. Thanks! Doug Jenkins dj022184@longs.LANCE.ColoState.Edu
conan@wish-bone.berkeley.edu (09/29/89)
In article <Sep.27.02.35.47.1989.28103@athos.rutgers.edu> dj022184@longs.lance.colostate.edu (Douglas Jenkins) writes: > >Something has been brought to my attention but I never really considered it >seriously until this year, and that is the subject of Halloween. I'm told >that the Bible says we aren't supposed to associate ourselves (children of >God) with evil spirits (ghosts, goblins, etc). Well, that is pretty much what >Halloween is all about, right? The idea used to be to put out jack-o-lanterns >and dress up in costumes to appease the evil spirits. For what it's worth: Halloween was originally a Christian holiday: Hallowed Eve, the vigil of the feast of All Saint's day, which is November 1. For some reason it was believed that ghosts and demons roamed the Earth that night-- our traditions have evolved out of that. I find that crass materialism associated with this holiday (as with most other holidays in America) to be a little much, but if it's kept in perspective there is nothing to get too concerned about. Your brother in Christ, David Cruz-Uribe, SFO
rbq@iforgetmyname.lbp.harris.com (Robert Quattlebaum) (09/29/89)
In article <Sep.27.02.35.47.1989.28103@athos.rutgers.edu> dj022184@longs.lance.colostate.edu (Douglas Jenkins) writes: > >Something has been brought to my attention but I never really considered it >seriously until this year, and that is the subject of Halloween. I'm told >that the Bible says we aren't supposed to associate ourselves (children of >God) with evil spirits (ghosts, goblins, etc). Well, that is pretty much what >Halloween is all about, right? The idea used to be to put out jack-o-lanterns >and dress up in costumes to appease the evil spirits. > >I understand that now its little more than a tradition, but the basic concept >still remains. We still carve scary faces in pumpkins and run around in scary >costumes. Should we give up this tradition in order to obey God's will? Is >it okay to dress up in clown outfits instead of ghosts and goblins? Many churches are now offering alternatives to Halloween. They give various different names to the parties, but all are basically an alternative to traditional Halloween. In fact, for the kids, there probably is no real difference. Candy is given away, games are played, and you show up dressed for the occasion (usually a Bible character). This seems well and good to me -- IF you have children who have participated in Halloween previously. It's better than just stopping them from the trick-or-treat fun. However, if you are like me and have no children yet, you should consider never starting ANY such tradition on October 31. (I'm not sure yet how this will be handled). Halloween is, after all, derived from Satanism. I want no part of it. I'm also still not sure how best to handle trick-or-treators who come to my door. Perhaps the best way is to give them a piece of candy attached to a tract or note or something proclaiming Christ or revealing what Halloween is. You might me seen as the weird/mean neighbor if you refuse to give kids anything or if you don't answer the door. I am also very interested to see some more opinions on this subject. R. Quattlebaum My employer doesn't CARE what I think. "God is love, not religion" So what does it matter what I say? gatech!galbp!iforgetmyname.LBP.HARRIS.COM!rbq [Of course Halloween is not derived from Satanism. It's derived from a festival of the Church combined with earlier generations' fears of evil creatures. But your advice may still be sensible. I'm not saying you are doing this, but I'm worried that it is possible to go too far in purging the world of things that reflect our ancestors' attitudes to things that they did not understand. Why are "ghost stories" around a campfire still attractive? For me at least they provide a little opening in a world that otherwise has all too little room for anything mysterious or beyond the ordinary. Certainly one would not want to do this in a way that promotes superstition, but I worry about completely ridding the world of all fairy tales, ghost stories, halloween, etc. Again, I don't necessarily object to the sort of replacement you are suggesting for Halloween, particularly now that there are practical reasons why Trick or Treat is no longer as useful as it used to be. --clh]
pmd@cbnews.att.com (Paul M Dubuc) (09/29/89)
A short answer to the original question: In my opinion, I see nothing wrong with Christians participation in the social rituals of Halloween. You have to ask how much "paganism" is really being instilled in your child by it. Talk to your child about your feelings, find a happy medium of participation that you both feel relatively comfortable with. Strictly excluding your child's participation when they just want to have fun with their friends may do more harm than good. On to what is becoming a pet peeve concerning Halloween and the public schools: It's not even October yet and they are starting up already. My daughter's Kindergarten class is making haunted houses and ghost masks. Around here the schools really over-do Halloween. Doing even half as much for Christmas would be considered sectarian and offensive, a violation of Church/State separation. Modern pagans probably feel the same way about popular Halloween decorations as I do about Santa Claus, but I still don't see any reason to emphasize the observance of one event so much over the other. Where's the ACLU when you need them? ;-) Any other opinions? -- Paul Dubuc | "How could God reveal himself in a way that would leave att!asr1!pmd | no room for doubt? If there were no room for doubt, there | would be no room for me." | Frederick Buechner [Interesting. I wonder if it's precisely *because* one can't spend as much time on Christmas. --clh]
nlt@macbeth.cs.duke.edu (N. L. Tinkham) (10/01/89)
Doug Jenkins asks for advice about celebrating Halloween.
The primary Bible passage that comes to mind is Paul's advice in
I Corinthians 8-9 concerning meat offered to idols: those who, like Paul,
felt that the offering meant nothing, because the idols meant nothing,
were free to eat the meat; those for whom such meat was a reminder of
polytheism should abstain; and each group should be courteous towards the
conscience of the other.
The observance of Christian (or secular) festivals which are closely
associated with pagan festivals seems to me analogous. These festivals can
be harmless fun, or occasions for meeting God, or both; they can also have
pagan associations which are troublesome to some people, and, as in the earlier
case of meat offered to idols, that troublesomeness should be respected, both
in oneself and in others.
In my own case, Halloween is the holiday which comes closest to treading
on my "meat offered to idols" boundary; I enjoy carving pumpkins and dressing
up in costumes (and do so guilt-free), and I like having All Saints' Day in
the calendar, but occasionally I have encountered rituals or customs that
made me feel uncomfortably close to what are, for me, the very powerful
associations of Samhain. As in the case of the Corinthians, the location of
this boundary will vary from person to person: for some, any reference to
ghosts and other "things that go bump in the night" will be uncomfortable;
others will say "Don't be silly; there are no such things as ghosts" and will
have no reservations about the holiday at all. My advice is to examine the
associations that you and those close to you have with Halloween symbols and
set limits for yourself accordingly. Selecting the clown costume over the
scary one, if the scary one feels "wrong" to you, is a good example.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
"The dead do not walk." - Leela Nancy Tinkham
nlt@cs.duke.edu
{decvax,rutgers}!mcnc!duke!nltncramer@bbn.com (10/01/89)
In article <Sep.29.03.13.25.1989.15954@athos.rutgers.edu> conan@wish-bone.berkeley.edu writes: >For what it's worth: Halloween was originally a Christian holiday: Hallowed >Eve, the vigil of the feast of All Saint's day, which is November 1. For some >reason it was believed that ghosts and demons roamed the Earth that night-- >our traditions have evolved out of that. The specific holiday of Halloween may have been of Christian origin, but the time of the festival (~1NOV) has at its source one of the eight main religious days of the year for the old solar religions. Besides the two solstices and equinoces, the days midway between these times were also celebrated. Relics of these occasions survive into modern times: ~1MAY (as Mayday), ~1FEB (the european Brigit, taken over as a feast of Mary --furthermore as "the start of spring" this may have something to do with Ground Hogs Day), ~1NOV (Halloween) and ~1AUG. The point being that the Christian holiday may have taken over the *time* of the earlier festival in the same sense that the *timing* of holidays of Christmas and Easter may have supplanted, respectively, the festivals of the winter solstice and the vernal equinox. NICHAEL
nlt@lear.cs.duke.edu (N. L. Tinkham) (10/03/89)
Our Fearless Moderator writes: > Why are "ghost stories" around a campfire still attractive? For me at least > they provide a little opening in a world that otherwise has all too little > room for anything mysterious or beyond the ordinary. Certainly one > would not want to do this in a way that promotes superstition, but I > worry about completely ridding the world of all fairy tales, ghost > stories, halloween, etc. This calls to mind a piece of my own story. As a college student, I invested most of my classroom time in studying mathematics and theology -- a natural choice for a young Christian with a logic-oriented temperament, but deadly to the maintenance of religious certainty, and by the end of those years I was engaged in trying to rebuild some sort of religious faith that could stand up for more than five minutes without toppling. Having asked "Is there any way to be certain of the existence of God" and answered the question negatively, I went on to ask "Do I have any reason at all to believe in God?" There is a part of me that is very secular by nature, a part that is, in practice, an atheist, or at best a deist. If I am asked why the recent hurricane hit Charlotte but not Durham, or why so-and-so is schizophrenic, or why one person is richer than another, or any number of other day-to-day "why" questions, I will look for a naturalistic explanation; I may end up saying "I don't know," but I do not seriously consider explanations involving God or other spirits -- to recall the infamous quote, "I have no need of that hypothesis." This secular part of me is, of course, strengthened by our culture and a good scientific education. My Christian upbringing offered little challenge to this secularity, as I was raised in a tradition that -- for good historical reasons -- was concerned to avoid all magic and superstition; in this endeavour they were quite successful. But in my searching, and prompted by reading one of G. K. Chesterton's books, I found within me something else, a part of me that has always been fascinated by stories of ghosts and elves and trolls and tree-spirits and water-spirits, that feels more "alive" in that world than almost anywhere else. And in that I found a reason not to be an atheist -- at least, a reason not to give up looking for God: If I am that drawn to this magical world, and if other people through the centuries have been too, and if they have stories to tell, maybe there's Something there. Maybe there is Something sacred and mysterious and "other" that touches the world, and people see it sometimes, and some of them tell stories about legendary beings to try to talk about this mystery. Maybe God is like this Something (Wow! God is like *that*?), or maybe this Something is God, just described badly. "Ghost stories" and other mythology have thus been for me -- and continue to be -- an important window into the mysterious and sacred. It is a little strange to find my Christian faith in such debt to pagan belief (and I know better than to say *that* out loud in church! :-) ), but these myths preserved for me the hope that there is Something rather than nothing -- a considerable accomplishment in modern times, and one for which I am grateful to the storytellers. -------------------------------------------------------------------------- "The poet only asks to get his head into the heavens. Nancy Tinkham It is the logician who seeks to get the heavens into nlt@cs.duke.edu his head. And it is his head that splits." -- G.K.C. rutgers!mcnc!duke!nlt
geoff@pmafire.UUCP (Geoff Allen) (10/03/89)
In article <Sep.29.03.27.17.1989.16360@athos.rutgers.edu> pmd@cbnews.att.com (Paul M Dubuc) writes: >On to what is becoming a pet peeve concerning Halloween and the public >schools: It's not even October yet and they are starting up already. >My daughter's Kindergarten class is making haunted houses and ghost masks. >Around here the schools really over-do Halloween. Doing even half as >much for Christmas would be considered sectarian and offensive, a violation >of Church/State separation. When my wife was doing some student teaching around Easter (when schools are doing the bunny bit), she asked her supervisor what she was allowed to tell the kids concerning why we celebrate Easter. She was told that she could NOT tell the kids the origin of Easter. Even if the kids were to ASK why we celebrate Easter, she couldn't say, "We celebrate Easter as the day Jesus rose from the dead." She couldn't even discuss it as a historical issue. I guess she was supposed to give some answer about bunnies or something. I don't know. Why do people assume it makes sense to celebrate a holiday that you can't even legally explain? -- Geoff Allen \ Since we live by the Spirit, {uunet,bigtex}!pmafire!geoff \ let us keep in step with the Spirit. ucdavis!egg-id!pmafire!geoff \ -- Gal. 5:25 (NIV) [This sounds like somebody is being overly cautious. Their European history must be real interesting. "Well, during the 16th Cent. there was this major event that completely changed the basis of European civilization. But we're not allowed to tell you anything about it. And it was followed by a bunch of wars. But we can't tell you who was fighting, why, or how they were resolved." Presumably rather than talk about bunnies your wife should say "It is a Christian religious holiday. School policy does not permit me to tell you anything more." Or if even mentioning Christian is too much "School policy does not permit me to answer that question." --clh]
mcg@lakart.uucp (Maralen Goodenough) (10/11/89)
conan@wish-bone.berkeley.edu writes: >For what it's worth: Halloween was originally a Christian holiday: Hallowed >Eve, the vigil of the feast of All Saint's day, which is November 1. For some >reason it was believed that ghosts and demons roamed the Earth that night-- >our traditions have evolved out of that. If you go right back to the distant past, it is possible to find an Ordo Kalendar where _EVERY_ day (except one) is dedicated to a Saint. The fact that a while back the R.C.'s "decanonised" a number of Saints rather put a spoiler on that. However, in those days, there was just one day that was not dedicated: All Hallow's Eve. For this reason perhaps it was taken as the day when evil spirits had the best chance of being out and about. The reason people dressed up in costumes is far simpler than some here have made out: it was simply a measure to confuse the evil spirits, and to prevent them (the humans) from beine recognised and attracting the unwanted attentions of the spirits. Over the years, this has degenerated into what we celebrate now, just like Christmas and Easter have changed into a celebration of Santa Claus (Saint Nicholas), and the easter bunny. -- mcg@lakart.UUCP - Maralen Goodenough +---+ | +-+-+ ....... !harvard!xait!lakart!mcg +-+-+ | AKA: mcg%lakart.uucp@harvard.harvard.edu +---+
cash@uunet.uu.net (Peter Cash) (10/11/89)
[This is a continuation of the discussion of Halloween. The question,
of course, is whether the pagan background of the holiday makes it
inappropriate for Christians to celebrate it. I commented on a
previous posting that I was a bit worried about the attempt to rid the
world completely of all fairy tales, ghost stories, etc. The
immediate comment to which the following responds is the claim that
Halloween was derived from Satanism. -clh]
Well, you're right and you're wrong. First of all, Hallowe'en may have a
Christian name (All Hallow's Eve), but it's a Celtic (and ergo Druid)
holiday that far predates Christianity. The Celtic (no connection with
the basketball team) new year began on about November first. (Since we are
going back several calendar reforms in time, we must be talking about
approximate time here...). Hallowe'en was the Celtic New Year's Eve.
It was called ``Samhain'' by them, and celebrated with human sacrifices,
and other nasty stuff. The Christians dealt with it the same way they
dealt with a lot of other pagan holidays--they took them over, and made
them "Christian".
But the fact is, if you are going to be overly fastidious about these things,
you can't celebrate ANY holydays--including that crypto-bunny fertility feast
(Easter), and the Saturnalia (a.k.a. Christmas). I'm afraid we Christians
didn't make up any holidays, we just took them over. (Yes, and now the
pagans are taking them back. I know, I know...)
I guess the key lies in what we are thinking when we celebrate these things.
If you like carving pumpkins--and feel reasonably sure that you are not
making any little demons--then by all means carve away. If the idea
bothers you, don't go near anything orange.
As far as the moderator's liking for stories of the supernatural goes (and
I here assume he does not mean those stories that dwell on evil, death,
and darkness, but rather those that reveal something of the mystery that
lies at the bottom of the universe)--why he is in good Christian company.
Unless you think that C.S. Lewis was a pagan.
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| The fleshe is bruckle, the Feynd is slee -- |
Peter Cash | timor mortis conturbat me! | cash@convex
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