mls@cbnewsm.att.com (Mike Siemon) (10/05/89)
David Buxton and Zach Lewis are engaged in a passionate defense of Sabbath observance (apparently, of the Jewish Saturday variety), and I think that the passion of their cause blinds them both to the weaknesses of their arguments and the integrity of opposing positions. They disclaim any intent to judge or condemn other positions, yet their words make a claim that we who hold other views are flagrantly ignoring divine commands. And they seem to be unable to respond to the opposing views -- they simply return to highly peculiar exegesis and repeat their claims. I see David and Zach as straining at gnats and swallowing camels, gnats like limiting Paul's use of circumcision as if it symbolized "ritual" and not the whole of the Law (as it yet does for the B'nai Berith who are the sons of the Covenant and are marked so by a b'ris, a circumcision), gnats like their odd distinction of the laws written on stone from the rest of the law. And having strained out these gnats, they swallow the camel that they are preserving part of the Law (which they claim to be in effect for us as it was for Israel at Sinai) while ignoring the rest (apparently, they can ignore all practical law as long as they keep a highly symbolic Sabbath?) Clearly, they will not see the same things as gnats and camels that I do. But what I want to impress on them is that unless they can deal directly with the points urged *against* their position, no amount of sincerity in repeating that position carries much weight. They can be personally convinced that they know the will of God, but that in itself carries no conviction to anyone else. I want to look here at the Torah of Israel, at law as it applies to all of us in our mere humanity, and at the true law of God that is written in our hearts and which is the obedience to God's will that Jesus pointed to in the Sermon on the Mount -- an obedience that we all find impossible except through the grace of God living in us, through Christ. I. The first point is that there is an exaggeration inherent in Paul's claim that the Law brings death, just as there is exaggeration in Jesus' condemnation of the Pharisees. Zach cited psalm 119, and indeed it is worth dwelling on that for a moment: Teach me, O Lord, the way of thy statutes And I will keep it unto the end. Give me understanding, and I will keep thy Law, Yea, I will keep it with my whole heart. There are in every generation Jews who delight in the Law, and do so not as hypocrites but as those who love God and their neighbor, whose delight in the law is derived from a God-given grace to obey the great commandment as Jesus taught it. I want to point out to Zach and David that THIS commandment is NOT one of those inscribed on stone. And if, as Jesus says and as Paul says, all the law and the prophets hangs on this command, what use is your distinction of laws in the Torah? The distinction Jesus makes, condemning the Pharisees as blind guides, is that they "have neglected the weightier matters of the law, justice and mercy and faith" (Matthew 23:23-24). If we are to have priorities in the Law, then I will follow Jesus' priorities over an odd interpretation of why the decalogue was written on stone. Anyone who has worked alongside orthodox Jews knows that Sabbath observance has two effects. And both of these are important in Jewish regligion: - a day set aside as holy to God, for study of Torah, can keep the love of God and God's commandments aflame in the heart of his people - this day also sets Israel as a people apart from the nations; as God is holy and the Sabbath is holy, so the people of Israel are thereby holy As Christians, our difficulty is *not* the first part, but the second. Almost all that we gentiles disdain as "ritual" has -- quite deliberately -- this same effect; it DIVIDES Israel from the nations, it DEDICATES Israel to God as God's chosen people. And rightly observed, such law is a continual reminder to Israel of its dependence on God. Of course, it doesn't always have that effect; in every generation of Jews there are also the hypocrites, self-righteous in their "own" worth, boasting of their performance of the Law. But even when performed out of love for God and humanity, the Torah -- and most especially "ritual" Torah like the Sabbath -- separates Israel from the nations. Yet Christ has erased that division; in Christ there is neither Jew nor Gentile, male nor female, slave nor free. By accepting *any* division, we reject the gospel. Jesus associated with publicans and sinners and most especially did *not* keep himself apart as "too holy" for contamination -- it was the Pharisees, the _perushim_ who were the separators, their "holiness" compromised by eating with the _am ha'aretz_. Jews have never held that Sabbath observance was a law for all nations, nor does the inscription of the decalogue on stone make it any the less a gift to *Israel* and a part of the Covenant between God and his chosen people. It is a part of the Law *for Israel* even if it is taken as the capstone of the law. But Jeremiah prophesies a law written not on stone but in our hearts, and we have in Jesus our New Covenant in His blood. A Law code made by God to separate his chosen people from among the nations is superceded by a "code" that lives in us and commands us to love our enemies, to make *no* separations between Jews and the Samaritans or gentiles who obey a different law. II. A law code (or a treaty or covenant) is more than just one or two of its provisions. Similar -- even identical -- individual laws or provisions may be found in quite different codes, quite different covenants. Zach seems to feel that if I "break" the Jewish sabbath law I am somehow (logically?) constrained to "break" the other laws of this covenant (whether the 10 or the 613 of the rabbis) -- that a sabbath breaker is somehow the same thing as a murderer or thief or one who dishonors his parents: > The TEN Commandments Written in stone are not binding ? > Then maybe I can kill people now since there is no clear text that say > that the Law is binding RIGHT ? This is unbelievably insulting. And if Zach and David do not realize that they are condemning people and doing so on the basis of the flimsiest kind of "logic" then they should email me and we can discuss the matter in whatever detail they like. In case Zach and David have never looked at the world, there is *no* society which does not forbid murder and theft and encourage (at least in words :-)) the honoring of parents. This has *nothing* to do with the stones of Sinai; it is the merest consequence of the way God created us -- as human beings we are moral creatures, even though as fallen we do what we ought not and so we make laws and sanctions against our own misdeeds. This is a fact of ALL human existence; it is the "lesson" we have to draw out of Genesis. Jewish exegesis finds many covenants in scripture, notably a covenant with Noah to which all the nations are (or should be) subject. As the moderator has noted, there may be some trace of that theory behind the proclamation in Acts of the "council" of Jerusalem. This exegesis is at least mythologically sound: we have a covenant with God written in our DNA, that is the source of human morality. It does not require revelation for men to know the right; it requires grace for us to *do* the right without corrupting it in the process of "obeying." Where our actions require us to judge others (more on this below), we use this human "common" law. I have no standing to judge a Jew on his obedience to Torah, nor has he standing to judge me thereby. Why a Christian thinks he can judge me out of the Torah, I am completely unable to comprehend. It is true enough that I "break" the law against Sabbath observance, and by that and by many other departures from the Torah I set myself outside the Law as it was given to Israel. But Israel's covenant is nothing of mine, except insofaras I am adoptive into Israel by the death of Christ, by His blood. But this blood dissolves the stones of Sinai as it dissolves the hardness of my own heart. III. No, the 10 commandments are NOT binding, any more than any other part of the code in God's covenant with Israel is binding. I am not bound by law at all, except as I am bound by human nature to that covenant in DNA I noted -- I am far more securely "bound" by the love of God. If Christ lives in me and I in Him, my heart beats with the living fulfilment of the Law. I will do no evil, and fear no evil, because my acts derive from the grace of God and in no way from my own merit or lack of merit. Do not misunderstand me -- my sinfullness still resists God and resists grace; I'm not talking about my acts when I turn my back on God. *Then* my heart turns to stone, and the Law *is* the stones of Sinai or the Twelve Tablets of Rome or Hammurabi's Code or any other stony accusation of my own fault. The common law of mankind is there to accuse me, when my heart is dead to God. When Paul speaks of the Law bringing death, that is part of what he means -- if we live to Christ, the Word sprouts in fertile soil and brings forth its fruit, and if not, no observance of Torah matters. (Or better, it matters only in the practical sense that *all* human law matters, as a very imperfect device for preventing harm and fostering good -- when I am dead to Christ, my obedience to law may matter to others, and I may need the constraints of society to force my obedience, but that obedience aids *me* not one bit.) Christ tells us not to judge others; given human nature, the only way this can be possible is if we *have* no laws to indict others on. The law in my heart is quite sufficient to convict *me* -- but that cannot govern any other person, so I have *no* ground in Christ to judge any other. I said before that we *will* judge, on the basis of common human law. I see no way to avoid that, since we have children to raise, representatives to select, choices that we *must* make for ourselves and others. But these practical judgments must not be made as if I were an agent of God's judgment; they must be subsumed in the life I lead to Christ -- who came to save sinners and shrugged off the dutiful elder brother of the prodigal. Second guessing God is a bad business; the "laws" I observe, whether inferred from human society or the demands God makes on me through the Spirit (and granting me with these demands the strength to meet them) are laws *to me* but I can generalize them to others only by a mutual grounding, either in simple human nature or in the love of Christ (which is human nature brought into the Spirit by the atonement.) Where we do not meet in love, or in God's love that grounds our creation, we have no "code" by which others are granted "jurisdiction" over us. And if we meet in Christ, jurisdiction is irrelevant as it is taken up in faith, hope and love. I can only conclude that for the Christian, there is no law other than Christ. Does that mean we flout all the laws of men? Of course not; human nature is not negated in Christ, it is transformed as to its *quality* by the Spirit, and we slough off the slavery attendant on our sin. But if in Christ we cannot sin, then there is no law we obey; we, like Christ, are simply obeying the will of our Father, as any child obeys the will of a beloved parent, while needing the parent's help to do so. -- Michael L. Siemon The Son of Man has come eating and drinking; cucard!dasys1!mls and you say "Behold, a glutton and a drunkard, att!sfbat!mls a friend of tax collectors and sinners." And standard disclaimer yet, Wisdom is justified by all her children.
davidbu@tekigm2.men.tek.com (David Buxton) (10/08/89)
I read with interrest Mike Siemen's post to this newsgroup. You seem to think I am side stepping something. Be specific so I can be responsive. Send me email asking me to post a reply and I will, presuming I understand what it is you think I am evading. You suggest I am intolerant of your views. Over the years the tables have generally been turned the other way around. SOME Sunday keepers, with their Blue Laws, have sent Sabatarians to jail where some of them died, (Late 1800s time frame or so). Some Sunday keepers have seen fit that Sunday should be legislatively brought forward as a symbol that this is a Christian nation. So often Sabatarians cannot land a job or loose their jobs because of their Sabbath. I know of no laws on the books that legislate anyone to keep the Sabbath but there are plenty of laws on the books, that if inforced, would try to legislate me to be a Sunday keeper. I simply want to stand up and show that there are solid scriptural grounds for the stand that we take. That if someone wants to be legislative then there is more basis for the Sabbath - I abhore the idea of any such legis- lation. Not for a single moment do I wish to imply that YOU have anything against my Sabbath. You have made it clear that you are no party to Blue Laws. Thank You!! OK then, be patient, hear me out. Let me make my stand. And then lets move on to other things. I have a little more to say about the law but I've said enough about the Sabbath. I'm done with that topic if you are. -------- One point that I do want to take up is the point that some make -- that in the Old Testament there are the Commandments and that in the New Testament these are replaced with the Law Placed In the Heart. My position is that these statements are easy to find in the Old Testament. The Old Testament makes it abundantly clear that the 'New Heart' experience is not the 'New Commandment' but rather the means, or the way, by which we keep the Com- mandments. It is Christ in us and not by our own means that we are to keep the Commandments. Let me site my texts: -------- Love your neighbor as yourself. (Lev. 19:18) Ten Commandments repeated in Deut 5. Then in Deuteronomy 6 we find - "And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy might. (Deut 6:5) And these words, which I command thee this day, shall be in thine heart; (Deut 6:6) That is how God wanted the Children of Israel to keep His Commandments. And they instead chose to do it by their own means. Man looks on the outward appearance but God looks on the heart. (1 Samuel 16:7) That he may turn our hearts to Him to keep His commandments. (1 Kings 8:58) ". . . servant David, who kept my commandments and followed me with all his heart, . . ." (1 Kings 14:8) No king before or after like him "who turned to the Lord with all his heart, with all his soul, and with all his might" (2 Kings 23:25) His delight is in the law of the Lord. (Ps. 1:2) "The law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul: the testimony of the Lord is sure, making wise the simple." (Ps. 19:7) "Wait for the Lord: be of good courage, and he shall strengthen thine heart: wait, I say, on the Lord." (Ps. 27:14) It is not sacrifices that you desire. I delight to do your will, Oh my God. Your law is within my heart. (Ps. 40:6-8) God knows the secrets of the heart. (Ps. 44:21) Create in me a clean heart. (Ps. 51:10) God does not delight in sacrifice or burnt offerings. "The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit; a broken and contrite heart, O God, you will not despise." (Ps. 51:16,17) Open thou mine eyes, that I may behold wondrous things out of thy law. (Ps. 119:18) "Their hearts are callous and unfeeling, but I delight in your law." (Ps. 119:70) Oh how I love thy law. (Ps. 119:97) "Oh how I love your law! I meditate on it all day long. Your commands make me wiser than my enemies, for they are ever with me. I have more insight than all my teachers, for I meditate on your statutes. I have more understanding than the elders, for I obey your precepts. (Ps. 119:97-100) "Thy word is a lamp unto my feet, and a light unto my path." (Ps: 119:105) "My heart is set on keeping your decrees to the very end." (Ps. 119:112) I love thy commandments above gold. (Ps. 119:127) Thy commandments are my delights. (Ps. 119:143) Great peace have they which love thy law: and nothing shall offend them. (Ps. 119:165) ". . . keep my commands in your heart." (Prov. 3:1) "Trust in the Lord with all your heart and lean not on your own understand- ing; in all your ways acknowledge him, and he will make your paths straight." (Prov. 3:5,6) As he thinketh in his heart so is he. (Prov. 23:7) "Can the Ethopian change his skin or the leopard its spots? Neither can you do good who are accustomed to doing evil." (Jer. 13:23) The time is coming when I will make a New Covenant - I will put my law in their minds, and write it in their hearts. I will be their God and they will be my people. (Jer. 31:31-33) "Then I will give them one heart, and I will put a new spirit within them, and take the stony heart out of their flesh, and give them a heart of flesh." (Eze. 11:19) Get a new heart and a new spirit. Why will you die . . . for I take no pleasure in the death of anyone, declares the Sovereign Lord. (Eze 18:31:32) "I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit in you; I will remove from you your heart of stone and give you a heart of flesh. And I will put my Spirit in you and move you to follow my decrees and be careful to keep my laws." (Eze. 36:26,27) ". . . Not by might nor by power, but by my Spirit,' says the Lord Almighty." (Zech. 4:6)
zach@drutx.att.com (Zach Lewis) (10/11/89)
In article <Oct.4.23.15.55.1989.3631@athos.rutgers.edu>, mls@cbnewsm.att.com (Mike Siemon) writes: > > David Buxton and Zach Lewis are engaged in a passionate defense of Sabbath > observance (apparently, of the Jewish Saturday variety), I am confused always when we say that the Sabbath was for the Jews. Mark 2:27 Jesus says the Sabbath was made for the Man Are you tring to say that the Sabbath was made for the Jews only ? Maybe Jesus is tring to confuse us or man and Jew means the same in Greek. Is Sunday Holy ? Where in the Bible ? I am not tring to burden you with the Law but to free you from tradition. Sunday is not a day that God choose so why do you keep it ? Is God choose the Sabbath wouldn't it make sense to keep a day that God has blessed, Made Holy since CREATION ! Why do you continue to put the Sabbath with the things that point to the cross. Does it hurt to keep the Sabbath ? Do you have clear insight from God's word that the Sabbath given to Adam in the Garden Gensis 2:2,3 was do away with for Sunday ? 1 John 5:2,3 Which says this is how we know we love God if we keep his commands. I know you want to say the New Testament commands but is that what the Bible says ? It is always a choice and if you think God does not care it is your choice. But It has been shown you from the Bible and you can use man's words but God's word is sure and makes it clear in Galatians 3:28,29 that there is NO DIFFERENCE between who (JEW/YOU, MALE/FEMALE, SLAVE/FREE for we are ONE in Christ tnd in verse 29 I says that all the promises given to the Jews are given to those who are in Christ. So why does the most protestant churches still try to draw lines between a Jew an them ? God knows and it is clear in 2 Thessalonians 2:9-12. Men wonder after the traditions of MEN. It is your choice God wants people to worship him in spirit and TRUTH not man made fables. I just asks that you stay in Bible if you want to defend your point to me. Maybe other people will take your word for it but until there is a Thus saith the Lord Jesus I will follow where Jesus led and Jesus kept the Sabbath and all things that Jesus did were good ! > Sinai) while ignoring the rest (apparently, they can ignore all practical law > as long as they keep a highly symbolic Sabbath?) Symbolic of Creation and that God has done all and does all. What does Sunday symbolize ? Sun worship (Baal), Man's Tradition. > I want to look here at the Torah of Israel, at law as it applies to all of us ^^^^^ The Torah of Israel ????? Why do men miss Galatians 3:28 ? Is it not clear there is NO DIFFERENCE ! This is the standard reponse that a Sunday (Baal) uses to say that it not important to keep the Sabbath but Sunday is better ? WHY ? > in our mere humanity, and at the true law of God that is written in our hearts > and which is the obedience to God's will that Jesus pointed to in the Sermon > on the Mount -- an obedience that we all find impossible except through the > grace of God living in us, through Christ. > I should make it clear AGAIN that the LAW does not save ! It shows us our defects so that we will go to Jesus to get them clean ! This is what has be taught since Adam sinned that Jesus is the only Lamb that takes away the sins of the world. >Zach cited psalm 119, and indeed it is worth dwelling on > that for a moment: > > Teach me, O Lord, the way of thy statutes > And I will keep it unto the end. > Give me understanding, and I will keep thy Law, > Yea, I will keep it with my whole heart. > > There are in every generation Jews who delight in the Law, and do so not as > hypocrites but as those who love God and their neighbor, whose delight in the > law is derived from a God-given grace to obey the great commandment as Jesus > taught it. Jesus was just repeating what he gave the Jews with the LAW in Deuteronomy 6:4,5. Oh it says hear on Israel that must leave you out again ??? Leviticus 19:18 deals with the Neighbor as yourself. Why do men miss Galatians 3:28 ? Is it not clear there is NO DIFFERENCE ! >I want to point out to Zach and David that THIS commandment is NOT > one of those inscribed on stone. Wrong Again Please read the Bible and uses scripture to understand scripture > Jews have never held that Sabbath observance was a law for all nations, nor Mark 2:27 AGAIN and also did Jesus do anything that we should not do ? Jesus did not act in any of the laws that pointed to Him , but He did keep the Sabbath every week. > And if Zach and David do not realize that they > are condemning people >and doing so on the basis of the flimsiest kind of "logic" I am just reading the Bible and if the Bible condemns it must be God's word. Please don't accuse me unless you have clear text from the Bible and not man made interpretations that make sin legal and Sunday holy. > that and by many other departures from the Torah I set myself outside the Law > as it was given to Israel. But Israel's covenant is nothing of mine, except > insofaras I am adoptive into Israel by the death of Christ, by His blood. But > this blood dissolves the stones of Sinai as it dissolves the hardness of my own > heart. Please use a Bible text and not your own words to break God's law. It is your choice. The Law is God's not Israel's please understand that the Bible NEVER calls the 10 Commandments the LAW OF ISRAEL so why do you have you been listening to man and NOT GOD ??? WHY ??? John 3:19. Light is shining why stay in darkness ??? > > III. No, the 10 commandments are NOT binding, any more than any other part > of the code in God's covenant with Israel is binding. I guess you are God and can change his Law ? It is you CHOICE ! > > I can only conclude that for the Christian, there is no law other than Christ. I am glad that you say you conclude rather than the Bible clearly says because that has been the main trust of your post what you think rather than what GOD HAS SAID ! > Michael L. Siemon The Son of Man has come eating and drinking; > cucard!dasys1!mls and you say "Behold, a glutton and a drunkard, > att!sfbat!mls a friend of tax collectors and sinners." And > standard disclaimer yet, Wisdom is justified by all her children. And this I pray, that your love may abound yet more and more in knowledge and in all judgement; that ye may approve things that are excellent; that ye may be sincere and without offense till the day of Christ; Being filled with the fruits of righteousness, which are by Jesus Christ, unto the glory and praise of God. Philippians 1:9-11 (KJV). ZAC ! [A number of our readers may find the suggestion that they are worshipping Baal to be slightly lacking in Christian charity. If they worship the Sun because they worship on Sunday, do you worship Saturn because you worship on Saturday? The proper terms are, of course, the Lord's Day and the Sabbath, respectively. In common speech we often use the normal English words because we are speaking English. --clh]
zach@drutx.att.com (Zach Lewis) (10/13/89)
Is Mark 2:28 saying that Jesus is Lord of Sunday ? I see Sabbath . Baal worship was false worship or tradition in place of what God has made clear from CREATION ? If God wanted every church to choose it's own day is that not a sign that the god you serve wants confusion or is not a god of order ? My God is a God os order He created the world in 6 days and gave the 7th for to rest and remeber that all things are from God. Gensis 2:2,3. Now if your god didn't create the world in 6 days than you can worship on any day because baal can't create? God is a God of order and makes things clear. Man adds his word and says maybe it was done aways with or it is for the Jews only yet the Jews were God's people and God gave to Sabbath to his people are we not the same Galatians 3:28,29. When I use baal for sunday I use it because the Jews went to baal because it was a easy do what you want any day you want type of religion which is what I see people calling for. My God is particular and He has shown us many things but we would rather follow a clear TRADITION than something that you can clearly back with the Bible and History. WHY ???? WHY ??? It is a choice and I seek not to Judge, but to present the evidence that God may Judge you by your own choice. God wants people to worship Him in SPIRIT only NO but TRUTH also. John 4:24. Zac ** If you like tradition than follow after men but the Bible says **