ivy%chem@ucsd.edu (Ivy Blumberg) (09/15/89)
>Which brings up an interesting suggestion: Those who tend to think of Jesus >as invariably utterly solemn and serious ought to read the Gospels with an >eye to seeing all His humorous (though certainly pungent) utterances -- like Touche--I agree with you there! >this comes from being an affluent American Christian, since much (but by no >means all) of American Christianity seems to either ignore the issue of riches >or turn it on its head by figuring that being a rich -- or shall we say, >financially blessed -- Christian necessarily means that you're in good with >God! How many times had I blithely read over that passage and that statement >of Christ's before, noddingly accepting it, ignoring its tremendous punch -- This brings up a puzzling subject for me. Can anyone give me some scripture-based ideas on the difference between materialistic and being blessed by God (i.e. David, Solomon) We just had a speaker come to our church from Mexico city who made the point that the Christians there considered it materialistic to own 3 shirts! What a contrast to Southern California living! ======================================================================== Ivy B.
plb@violin.att.com (Peter L Berghold) (09/18/89)
From article <Sep.15.05.29.27.1989.18665@porthos.rutgers.edu>, by ivy%chem@ucsd.edu (Ivy Blumberg): Status: RO > This brings up a puzzling subject for me. Can anyone give me > some scripture-based ideas on the difference between materialistic > and being blessed by God (i.e. David, Solomon) We just had a speaker I can't quote scripture and verse off the top of my head here, but I will venture to say that I believe the difference here is in wheather "you have things" or do "things have you". Pete
FRN@psuvm.psu.edu (09/18/89)
I've often been perplexed by the number of interpretations of Jesus's statement that a camel will pass through the eye of a needle before a rich man enters the kingdom. What's the ambiguity? Jesus makes it clear that riches lead to hell; and so he tells the man who asks for advice to "sell all you have and give to the poor" (not an exact quote, I realize). That Americans have trouble with these passages--and often work to interpret them so as to justify their wealth--is, I think, evidence of how devoted we are to our riches. Here we are, with one of the clearest directives in the gospels, but because we're so uncomfortable with the directive--and, of course, selfish--we can't bear to let the directive appear to be so clear, so we interpret it and reinterpret it until we feel some comfort. A priest in a wealthy parish I attended once interpreted Jesus's directive by telling his congregation that, "Of course, Jesus doesn't mean that." Oh really? I challenge that priest to find a simpler, clearer directive in any of the gospels. Seems to me that if we want to get into heaven, the answer isn't blowing in the wind at all. Tom Buckley
mark@drd.com (Mark Lawrence) (09/20/89)
plb@violin.att.com (Peter L Berghold) wrote: } } I can't quote scripture and verse off the top of my head here, [...] I consider Ron Sider's treatment of the subject in his book "Rich Christians in a Hungry World" to be a good starting point. Though the book is more than ten years old (and may have been considered faddishly social gospel by some), I sensed the clear call of a prophet in his words. Hard, uncomfortable but clear. -- mark@DRD.Com (918) 743-3013 Jer. 9:23,24 {uunet,rutgers}!drd!mark
bob@morningstar.com (Bob Sutterfield) (09/20/89)
Ron Sider's "Rich Christians in an Age of Hunger" has a lot to say about our responsibility as stewards of the remarkable wealth at our disposal in the developed world. The first edition was pretty radical, borne of his frustration at having recently returned from the mission field (Central America, I believe) and seen the classic American selfish materialism with fresh eyes. The more recent edition calls for a more wholistic balance between meeting physical and spiritual needs, without slighting either.
garys@decvax.uucp (Gary M. Samuelson) (09/20/89)
In article <Sep.17.15.19.25.1989.12571@athos.rutgers.edu> FRN@psuvm.psu.edu writes: >I've often been perplexed by the number of interpretations of Jesus's >statement that a camel will pass through the eye of a needle before a >rich man enters the kingdom. What's the ambiguity? Jesus makes it clear >that riches lead to hell; Then you must believe that Abraham, King David, Job and all the other wealthy individuals mentioned in the Bible are in hell. >and so he tells the man who asks for advice to >"sell all you have and give to the poor" (not an exact quote, I realize). Then let us base the discussion on an exact quote (Matthew 19:16ff - RSV): And behold, one came up to him, saying, "Teacher, what good deed must I do, to have eternal life?" And he said to him, "Why do you ask me about what is good? One there is who is good. If you would enter life, keep the commandments." He said to him, "Which?" And Jesus said, "You shall not kill, You shall not commit adultery, You shall not steal, You shall not bear false witness, Honor your father and mother, and, You shall love your neighbor as yourself." The young man said to him, "All these I have observed; what do I still lack?" Jesus said to him, "If you would be perfect, go, sell what you possess and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow me." When the young man heard this, he went away sorrowful, for he had great possessions. I am not sure if it is clear that Jesus expected the young man to sell everything, but that could be the case. But I don't believe that this advice was meant to apply to everyone; it was addressed to one individual. I don't think this was intended to be a universal command for several reasons: First, it reads that way. An individual asks questions, and Jesus gives answers. Second, it is impossible for me to obey the rest of the command given to that young man: "and come, follow me." Jesus is no longer walking around in bodily form; therefore I cannot follow him in the same sense that the young man could have, which is what I think Jesus wanted him to do. Third, it would be impossible to obey other commands that I believe are clearly universal if I sold literally everything. For example, I Timothy 5:8 says, "If anyone does not provide for his relatives, and especially for his own family, he has disowned the faith and is worse than an unbeliever." How could I support my family if I sell everything and give it all to the poor? Fourth is the fact that there are several other wealthy people mentioned in the Bible who were not so commanded. In addition to the ones listed above, there was "a rich man of Arimathea, named Joseph, who also was a disciple of Jesus (Matthew 27:57). This same Joseph took Christ's body and laid in his (Joseph's) own tomb. >That Americans have trouble with these passages--and often work to >interpret them so as to justify their wealth--is, I think, evidence of how >devoted we are to our riches. Here we are, with one of the clearest >directives in the gospels, but because we're so uncomfortable with the >directive--and, of course, selfish--we can't bear to let the directive >appear to be so clear, so we interpret it and reinterpret it until we feel >some comfort. It is certainly true that many Americans are "devoted to riches." So, apparently, was the young man in the text above -- which is no doubt why Jesus told him what he did. Whatever gets between you and the Lord must be confronted, and, if there is no other solution, it must be eliminated. Note, however, that you don't have to be rich in order to be covetous or materialistic. Note also that "Money is the root of all evil" is a misquote; it's, "The love of money is the root of all evils; it is through this craving that some have wandered away from the faith and pierced their hearts with many pangs (I Timothy 6:10)." >A priest in a wealthy parish I attended once interpreted Jesus's directive >by telling his congregation that, "Of course, Jesus doesn't mean that." Do you honestly think that Jesus meant that Christians should walk about homeless and naked? If you think he meant that literally all of his followers should sell literally all that they have, then that is the logical conclusion. >Oh really? I challenge that priest to find a simpler, clearer directive >in any of the gospels. How about: "He who believes and is baptized shall be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned (Mark 16:16)." Clear enough? Gary Samuelson
djohnson%beowulf@ucsd.edu (Darin Johnson) (09/20/89)
In article <Sep.17.15.19.25.1989.12571@athos.rutgers.edu> FRN@psuvm.psu.edu writes: >I've often been perplexed by the number of interpretations of Jesus's >statement that a camel will pass through the eye of a needle before a >rich man enters the kingdom. What's the ambiguity? Jesus makes it clear >that riches lead to hell; This reminds me of a sermon I heard ages ago. The point was brought up that a rich man CANNOT enter the kingdom of God. Of course, people argue about the needle referring to the 'needle gate' somewhere or other, and other similar points. Then the person giving the sermon goes on to who other passages that show that it is impossible for other groups of people to enter the kingdom of God. The sermon was concluded with the tought "Through Jesus Christ, all things are possible". The point being, a rich man (or any one else for that matter) cannot enter the kingdom of God by himself, but only by the intercession of Jesus Christ. I don't think it is clear that riches lead to hell (although the may gild the road to hell :-) in and of themselves. There are many things that can help lead to hell, wealth being only one of them. In fact, being poor can help lead to hell - take for instance the poor person consumed with hate for rich people. Without lots of wealth, a lot of charities would be in a bad position. I think the Bible warns against the temptations that arise from wealth, rather than the wealth itself. For instance, Soloman and David's sins were from temptations that arose from wealth and power. The wealth and power were gifts from God. Darin Johnson djohnson@ucsd.edu
ilw%chem@ucsd.edu (Ivy Blumberg) (09/23/89)
In article <Sep.17.15.19.25.1989.12571@athos.rutgers.edu> FRN@psuvm.psu.edu writes: What's the ambiguity? Jesus makes it clear >that riches lead to hell; and so he tells the man who asks for advice to >"sell all you have and give to the poor" (not an exact quote, I realize). >That Americans have trouble with these passages--and often work to >interpret them so as to justify their wealth--is, I think, evidence of how >devoted we are to our riches. Here we are, with one of the clearest >directives in the gospels, but because we're so uncomfortable with the >directive--and, of course, selfish--we can't bear to let the directive >appear to be so clear, so we interpret it and reinterpret it until we feel >some comfort. I agree that we are a selfish and materialistic bunch and I know of no group of people who need to be convicted of our greed more than Americans. However, Jesus didn't tell EVERYONE to sell everything, just this one rich man. I believe he did so to expose the man's heart--that riches were more important to him than God. Do you truly believe that in order to go to heaven we all must sell everything we own? I don't see how that's practical. Next you'll be telling us to pluck out our eyes like 'troubled with the SOM'! Ivy
tom@dvnspc1.Dev.Unisys.COM (Tom Albrecht) (09/23/89)
In article <Sep.20.04.21.24.1989.19607@athos.rutgers.edu>, bob@morningstar.com (Bob Sutterfield) writes: > Ron Sider's "Rich Christians in an Age of Hunger" has a lot to say > about our responsibility as stewards of the remarkable wealth at our > disposal in the developed world. ... If you're interested in another prespective, I would suggest any of the following books: "Poverty & Wealth" and "Social Justice and the Christian Church" both by Ronald Nash "Prosperity & Poverty" by E. Calvin Beisner "Productive Christians in An Age of Guilt Manipulators" by David Chilton The book by Chilton is a direct response to Sider's book. They all discuss the problem and offer solutions from the limited government/free market side of things. I think Beisner's book is the best, but they're all very good. -- Tom Albrecht
gross@dg-rtp.dg.com (Gene Gross) (10/08/89)
In article <Sep.15.05.29.27.1989.18665@porthos.rutgers.edu> ivy%chem@ucsd.edu (Ivy Blumberg) writes: > This brings up a puzzling subject for me. Can anyone give me >some scripture-based ideas on the difference between materialistic >and being blessed by God (i.e. David, Solomon) We just had a speaker >come to our church from Mexico city who made the point that the >Christians there considered it materialistic to own 3 shirts! >What a contrast to Southern California living! I read this and decided to offer my .02 worth, though I haven't prepared any Scriptural verses per se. To me being materialistic is to be focussed on material things to the exclusion of all else. Can a person be rich (American standard) and not be materialistic? I think so. From my reading and understanding of Scripture, being wealthy is not a sin. Nor does it indicate anything about your relationship to God. Certainly there are poor people who are very close to God. Often the parable in Luke concerning the rich man and the beggar is used to say that the rich go to hell. Yet if you go back and read this parable in detail, you'll find that it isn't the material wealth for which Dives ends up in hell, but rather his attitude toward those less fortunate. Then there is the incident with the young rich prince and Jesus. The young man asks Jesus what he must do to be saved. Jesus perceives where this person's heart really is and tells him to go and sell all he has and give the proceeds to the poor. The young man was totally focussed on his materialistic wealth and just could not do it. I can understand how three shirts could be considered materialistic. Being fat is considered a sure sign of wealth in some parts of the world. But for me the point is still, where is your heart? Is it settled upon earthly treasures--clothes, cars, possessions, money, etc.? Or do you see these things as just that things to be used as God sees fit? I'm not going to demand that everyone run out and start giving 10 percent to their church, because to me everything belongs to Christ. This is where I have disagreement with some folks--or they with me. The tithe is no longer enough--Christ paid too high a price for just a mere 10 percent from us. By the same token, we must also care for our own families (those of us who have families) so we can't just give without taken some care to feed and clothe our families. If I were to go to Mexico and a brother questioned the number of shirts that I had, I'd give him his pick of shirts in my closet--trousers as well. If they didn't fit, I'd offer to have them tailored to fit him. To me this follows the principle I see Paul putting forth in Romans 14. Is being rich a sign of God's blessing? Is being poor a sign of God's turning away or displeasure? Maybe to both questions. Certainly all things come from God, but to say that one person is wealthy because God is blessing that person is going a bit too far. Yes, God does bless certain of His children with great material wealth so that they can use it to support the spread of the Gospel and Christian charity work (Love work). Does this mean that the poor have nothing they can do to support the spread of the Gospel and Christian charity work? To the contrary IMHO. Remember the story of the widow, Jesus made note of her and the fact that she was giving her *all* to God. I'm trying to walk a fine line here because I am trying not to offend any brothers and sisters out there. Let me close by saying that to me it isn't whether you are wealthy or not, but what you do with what you've been given. It is written that to whom much is given of same much is required. And it is also written the to whom little is given of same little is required. Now there may be other uses for that passage, but I see an underlying principle that applies here. If God has seen fit to make you wealthy, what are you doing with that wealth? Where is your heart? By the same token, if you are not wealthy, do you spend your time bemoaning the fact and envying those who are? Again, where is your heart? However, no one answers to me--I'm a nobody. I too answer to the same person--Jesus Christ, Lord, Saviour, and Master of us all. Peace, Gene
davem@watmath.waterloo.edu (Dave Mielke) (10/11/89)
The book of Job offers a wonderful answer to those who are trying to
understand the difference which we must make between spiritual and
physical riches. It teaches that physical riches will not in and of
themselves condemn us to eternal damnation. It does, however, teach
very clearly that we have most definitely committed a terrible sin if
we place any of our trust in those physical riches.
Job was both spiritually and physically about as rich as any of us
could ever hope to be here on this earth. Job 1:1-3 introduces him to
us by saying "There was a man in the land of Uz, whose name {was} Job;
and that man was perfect and upright, and one that feared God, and
eschewed evil. And there were born unto him seven sons and three
daughters. His substance also was seven thousand sheep, and three
thousand camels, and five hundred yoke of oxen, and five hundred she
asses, and a very great household; so that this man was the greatest of
all the men of the east.".
Even though God viewed Job as being "perfect and upright", i.e. all of
Job's sins had been completely covered by the blood of Christ, He
permitted him to undergo some rather severe suffering. This suffering
included the complete loss of all of his physical possessions, the
simultaneous death of each of his seven sons and three daughters, the
temporary loss of his wife's care and companionship, temporary yet
severe and prolonged distrust and harrassment by his three closest
friends, and the wracking of his body with the worst kinds of illness.
Job knew that his sins had been forgiven, in Job 19:25 he cried out
"For I know {that} my redeemer liveth, and {that} he shall stand at the
latter {day} upon the earth:", and could not understand why he was
undergoing this tremendous ordeal. We know that God was demonstrating
to Satan, and to us, that neither anything nor anyone can snatch even
one person away from His protective care once it has been offered. He
was, in effect, giving us physical proof of what is told us in Romans
8:38-39 which says "For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life,
nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor
things to come, Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be
able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our
Lord.".
Although God has told us His reasons for permitting Job to suffer so
much in order that we might learn all the various spiritual lessons
that come with this knowledge, He never did tell Job. Much of the book
of Job is filled with Job's attempts to understand why these things
were happening to him. He asked numerous soul searching questions which
we all would do well to ask ourselves as well.
Amongst all of the various questions which he raises, Job asks the very
question that started this series of postings. Through Job's asking of
the question, God gives us the answer. Job 31:24-28 says "If I have
made gold my hope, or have said to the fine gold, {Thou art} my
confidence; If I rejoiced because my wealth {was} great, and because
mine hand had gotten much; If I beheld the sun when it shined, or the
moon walking {in} brightness; And my heart hath been secretly enticed,
or my mouth hath kissed my hand: This also {were} an iniquity {to be
punished by} the judge: for I should have denied the God {that is}
above.".
Dave Mielke, 613-726-0014
856 Grenon Avenue
Ottawa, Ontario, Canada
K2B 6G3frgreen@uunet.samsung.com (10/16/89)
I was very happy with the thoughts presented on attachment vs money. If we
look to those near us we see families who want children, who can have none;
those that have another day to live, yet read the death notices; those that
complain about their work, yet see the unemployed. We should be thankful for
what God provides, but not hoard it, or be envious of someone else's state.
Look for what God has provided you that someone else does not have. In my own
case, I've had a form of cancer for 12 years which has been treated
surgically 37 times. Yet I thank God that it is treatable, some do not have
this blessing. Riches are not always found in money.
frgreen
---
******************************************
* In Buffalo - We're Number One (sbuf01) *
******************************************mvt@hpzit.hp.com (Mick Tegethoff) (10/19/89)
This subject has taken a lot of my time lately. It goes deeper than just
what you have (or what you are a stward of), it also includes our
responsability for the condition of others. Let me try to explain:
The fact that much of the worlds wealth is controlled by a selected few (we in
the US control a lot of this wealth) makes the actions of the few felt by
everyone. i.e. our consuming habits have an effect on the overall world economy.It goes beyond giving it all, it calls for justice, especially when corporations manipulate 3rd world countries for profit. We support the corporations, we want goods made by cheap labor and we want to keep the labor cheap!
A good book i read recently is :
The Mustard Seed Conspiracy
by Tom Sine
Although I don't agree with everything Sine says I reccomend the book. It has
been an eye opener for me.
In His Love
Mick fr@icdi10.UUCP (Fred Rump from home) (10/23/89)
In article <Oct.16.00.23.41.1989.14464@athos.rutgers.edu> cdin-1!sbuf01!frgreen@uunet.samsung.com writes: >I was very happy with the thoughts presented on attachment vs money. [other comments deleted] >Yet I thank God that it is treatable, some do not have >this blessing. Riches are not always found in money. I firmly believe the greatest wealth is life itself. It is that which we really only appreciate once we've tested it's possible loss and somehow survived. Somehow we become better humans, often even religious, once we have seen how short life can really be. The recent earthquake newsreports showed individuals who happened to be 2 feet out of place or 5 minutes late and they survived when they surely would not have under a very slight different circumstance. When those circumstances are viewed as acts of God, that chose us to still be, don't we then try to find out why? What did God have in store for us that it seemed important enough to carry out? It brings real meaning to our thoughts. It gives us all a small glimpse of the real wealth and possibility of life. Is then not the richest man alive he who appreciates life and is most happy for it? Fred Rump -- This is my house. My castle will get started right after I finish with news. 26 Warren St. uucp: ...{bpa dsinc uunet}!cdin-1!icdi10!fr Beverly, NJ 08010 domain: fred@cdin-1.uu.net or icdi10!fr@cdin-1.uu.net 609-386-6846 "Freude... Alle Menschen werden Brueder..." - Schiller