geoff@pmafire.UUCP (Geoff Allen) (10/27/89)
In article <Oct.22.13.47.02.1989.25439@athos.rutgers.edu> mangoe@cs.umd.edu (Charley Wingate) writes: >However, I am a bit concerned about this seemingly morbid fascination with >seeing Satan in everything. But he *is* in everything. Satan is described as `the god of this age' (II Co. 4:4), he has power over the world (see Luke 4:6), and `prowls around like a roaring lion looking for someone to devour' (I Pe. 5:8). It's not a `morbid fascination,' just a commentary on the state of things in this fallen creation. >It's positively medieval, and I'm not being >metaphorical about that either. The evolution of christmas in particular is >fairly obviously due to the worship of the Almighty Dollar. Perhaps we may >see Satan here, in that "the love of money is the root of all evil," but my >point is that the history of modern christmas is adequately explained in the >rational persuit of business, not by some sort of occult influences. It is >sufficient to show the evil of a situation without naming it "Satan's >Influence!" and thus essentially ascribing the situation to unknowable >forces. I don't think that's the claim. Rather, Satan's influence can be seen in the fact that the focus on Christ has essentially gone from Christmas. As Charley pointed out in his article, "The Christmas Song" is supposed to sum up all that Christmas means, yet it makes no mention of Christ or anything `religious.' Many of the most popluar Christmas songs are that way ("Jingle Bells," "Let It Snow," "Winter Wonderland," etc.). This is just what Satan wants. This isn't due to `unknowable forces.' Rather, I think it's a combination of man's fallen condition (which makes us tend to want to avoid God) and Satan's power over the minds of unbelievers (II Cor. 4:4) Satan works subtly (Gen. 3:1) and he appears as an angel of light (II Cor. 11:14). I don't believe Satan has horns and a spiked tail. To Americans, he wears a pinstripe suit and drives a BMW. His goal is to keep us from Jesus, and he'll do whatever he can to accomplish that. `Unknowable forces' and Satanic rituals aren't going to be nearly as effective in doing that as the more subtle things like keeping us all smug and satisfied in our condos. >In this case, the forces are plain and obvious, and while I would >say that they are forces of evil, it is to our advantage to understand them >as purely natural phenomena of ordinary human behavior. Of course they're `plain and obvious.' Does this mean that Satan can't be behind it? Lying is certainly `ordinary human behavior,' yet Jesus described it as being Satanic in origin (see John 8:44). Again, saying that Satan is behind something *doesn't* mean it's mysterious, occultic, or `satanic.' Rather, it means that it is anti-God, since that's what Satan's all about, really. (Before anyone gets worked up, I'm *not* claiming that Christmas is ordained of God. I'm just commenting that, in it's `pure' form Christmas *does* get us to focus on Jesus. And that is something that Satan doesn't want to see.) I'm *not* saying that `the devil made me do it' is a valid excuse for anything. We are all responsible for our own actions. Satan doesn't *make* us turn Christmas into a materialistic holiday any more than he made Adam and Eve fall (Eve's attempted defense notwithstanding). He just nudges us in the direction we're naturally inclined to go. I'd recommend reading _The_Screwtape_Letters_ by C.S.Lewis for some insight into how Satan works. I does require some mental gymnastics to get at the point, since the person doing all the talking is a demon, but it's well worth the reading. -- Geoff Allen \ Since we live by the Spirit, {uunet,bigtex}!pmafire!geoff \ let us keep in step with the Spirit. ucdavis!egg-id!pmafire!geoff \ -- Gal. 5:25 (NIV)
mike@unmvax.cs.unm.edu (Michael I. Bushnell) (10/30/89)
Some comments on Satan, expressing my beliefs.
First, I believe that this world is essentially good. It is *not*
essentially evil, and, as good, God is the final sovreign over all
creation. He didn't give part of it to Satan, he didn't decide that
Satan would rule people.
Second, Satan is a personification of our own tendencies to violate
God's will. Satan has no power. My God is all-powerful and does not
surrender to evil, temporarily or permanently.
Third, C.S. Lewis spoke later about Screwtape Letters. It seems he did
not want to be saying what you allege. He wanted to make people realize
what evil is like, and how to remain constant in the faith. It isn't a book
about Satan, it's a book about God.
--
Michael I. Bushnell \ This above all; to thine own self be true
LIBERTE, EGALITE, FRATERNITE \ And it must follow, as the night the day,
mike@unmvax.cs.unm.edu /\ Thou canst not be false to any man.
Telephone: +1 505 292 0001 / \ Farewell: my blessing season this in thee!cbz@alux6.att.com (Craig B Ziemer) (11/10/89)
Michael I. Bushnell writes: >Some comments on Satan, expressing my beliefs. > >First, I believe that this world is essentially good. It is *not* >essentially evil, and, as good, God is the final sovreign over all >creation. He didn't give part of it to Satan, he didn't decide that >Satan would rule people. > How do you reconcile your beliefs with God's Word in Genesis 8:21: "And when the Lord smelled the pleasing odor, the Lord said in his heart, "I will never again curse the ground because of man, FOR THE IMAGINATION OF MAN'S HEART IS EVIL FROM HIS YOUTH; neither will I ever again destroy every living creature as I have done."" (emphasis mine) Similarly, in Mark 7:21-23 we find: "For from within, out of the heart of man, come evil thoughts, forni- cation, theft, murder, adultery, coveting, wickedness, deceit, licen- tiousness, envy slander, pride, foolishness. ALL THESE EVIL THINGS COME FROM WITHIN, AND THEY DEFILE A MAN." (emphasis mine) I interpret these verses to mean that man, since the fall, is essen- tially evil, not good, which is why we NEED a Savior! >Second, Satan is a personification of our own tendencies to violate >God's will. Satan has no power. My God is all-powerful and does not >surrender to evil, temporarily or permanently. > In Luke 10:18 we read: "And he [Jesus] said to them, "I saw Satan fall like lightning from heaven."" I interpret this to mean that Satan is actually a being, not a "person- ification of our own tendencies." * Craig B. Ziemer %% DISCLAIMER: AT&T does not * * AT&T Bell Laboratories %%%%%% officially support what I * * Reading, PA %% just said, in fact, they * * UUCP ADDRESS: alux6!cbz %% rarely do :^) * [The issue is what is meant by "essentially". Classical theology sees evil as a corruption of good, but not as wiping it out. The heart of man is not essentially evil. Man was created in the image of God and pronounced good. Sin does not wipe out the image of God. Otherwise it would no longer be right for Christ to call all men his brothers. What sin does do is tarnish or corrupt the image of God, so that everything we do is to a greater or lesser extent corrupted. The view that man is essentially evil tends very easily to turn into Manicheeism, a dualism that sees good and evil as symmetrical, with God and Satan as equal and opposite forces, both of which were present from eternity. Physical existence and the body are seen as being part of Satan's realm, and essentially evil. This leads to a rejection of sex and marriage, and to a refusal to deal with physical problems such as hunger and suffering. Christianity rejected this concept. --clh]