ASPRINGMAN@eagle.wesleyan.edu (DAYSPRING) (10/30/89)
I have heard a disturbing echo from Christians during my four wonderful years
of new life with Jesus. I have heard it on this newsgroup also.
_Praise_for_being_human_instead_of_pious._
Ok, I get it as far as hypocrites go. They act pious but are utterly sinful.
But, more is being said than that. I see the following implications...
1) Humans are defined as sinners.
Now, I am sorry to disagree with so many people throughout History, but
humans are not created as sinners. "For all have sinned and fall short the
glory of God." is very true but notice it says sinned, not sinned from
conception.
2) Humans are confined to sin until heaven.
To this I ask what the Resurection and the Cross were all about? What
does it mean that our old selves are crucified with Christ and that we are new
creations and that we are washed in the blood of Jesus, white as snow. Why
can't we walk in holiness? Who's to stop us if God is with us?
3) Those people who are walking in the light are not being praised.
If anyone should be praised it should be sinless humans not sinful humans.
PLEASE RESPOND TO THIS! I VERY MUCH WANT TO LEARN ABOUT THIS!
To Him Who is able to KEEP YOU FROM FALLING and present you before His glorious
Presence WITHOUT FAULT and with great joy, to the olny God, our Savior be
glory, power, majesty, and authority through Jesus Christ our Lord, before all
ages, now and forever more. AMEN!
Andrew William Springman
Adopted Son of Elohim
Grafted Branch
Tickl'r of the Gitt'rjygabler@ucdavis.edu (Jason Gabler) (11/10/89)
In article <Oct.29.21.13.42.1989.3214@athos.rutgers.edu> ASPRINGMAN@eagle.wesleyan.edu (DAYSPRING) writes: >I have heard a disturbing echo from Christians during my four wonderful years >of new life with Jesus. I have heard it on this newsgroup also. > > _Praise_for_being_human_instead_of_pious._ Not to flame but, I have not heard that from other Christians.... "......and let endurance have its perfect result, that you may be perfect and complete, lacking in nothing" (James 1:4 NAS) >Ok, I get it as far as hypocrites go. They act pious but are utterly sinful. >But, more is being said than that. I see the following implications... Those who are "utterly sinful" are most likely NOT hypocrits... Why? Because they are most likely NOT Christians.... >1) Humans are defined as sinners. > > Now, I am sorry to disagree with so many people throughout History, but >humans are not created as sinners. "For all have sinned and fall short the >glory of God." is very true but notice it says sinned, not sinned from >conception. Romans 3:23, in no way implies our birth as a sinful, pre-condemned beings. However do not read into it. Yet, we ARE all sinners. Forget the "moment of that first sin". After the age of accountability, we have ALL knowingly and willfully sinned. So, Rom 3:23 is right.... we are all sinners, and that's all it says. > >2) Humans are confined to sin until heaven. > > To this I ask what the Resurection and the Cross were all about? What >does it mean that our old selves are crucified with Christ and that we are new >creations and that we are washed in the blood of Jesus, white as snow. Why >can't we walk in holiness? Who's to stop us if God is with us? > >3) Those people who are walking in the light are not being praised. > > If anyone should be praised it should be sinless humans not sinful humans. > Sorry, there are NO sinless humans.... > > > Andrew William Springman > Adopted Son of Elohim > Grafted Branch > Tickl'r of the Gitt'r My point is this: we are constantly called to strive for perfections as Christians. That is our goal, to be like Jesus.... But, obviusly we cannot be perfect while in imperfect bodies. Besides we wouldn't really need Jesus if we could be perfect. Do not get caught up in perfection. Remeber the Pharisees! How thier goal became to keep the WHOLE law. Impossible! And as Jesus said, we "forget the weightier matters" when we pay too much attention to these things. Oh, but NEVER forget the "endurance" James tells us to crave. Lastly, remember David. Compared to him, I'm a saint, halo and all :) But had so many blessing from God all thru his life, and had so much thankfulness to give, he definately was a Godly man... Remeber sin is a paradox! WE ought not to sin , but without it we do not need most of Gods gifts, yet He tells us to strive for perfection... (ok Jason, wrack our minds some more :) ..... Andrew, your zealousness is commendable! but do not get distracted. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Jason Gabler Data Communications Group, Computing Services, UC Davis, Davis CA ccjason@castor.ucdavis.edu jygabler@ucdavis.edu edu!ucdavis!jygabler -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Whatever you do, do your work heartily, as for the Lord, rather than men. ><> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
harry@atmos.washington.edu (Harry Edmon) (11/10/89)
Andrew Springman writes: > 1) Humans are defined as sinners. > > Now, I am sorry to disagree with so many people throughout History, but > humans are not created as sinners. "For all have sinned and fall short the > glory of God." is very true but notice it says sinned, not sinned from > conception. The justification for being in the state of sin from conception is found in Psalm 51:5 (NIV): "Surely I have been a sinner from birth, sinful from the time my mother conceived me." > 2) Humans are confined to sin until heaven. > > To this I ask what the Resurection and the Cross were all about? What > does it mean that our old selves are crucified with Christ and that we are new > creations and that we are washed in the blood of Jesus, white as snow. Why > can't we walk in holiness? Who's to stop us if God is with us? The point of the Resurrection and the Cross is not that we are suddenly able to stop sinning. Paul expresses this wonderfully in Romans 7:14-25. The point of the Cross is that the debt for our sins is paid, including the sins I continue to commit after I have faith in Jesus. > 3) Those people who are walking in the light are not being praised. > > If anyone should be praised it should be sinless humans not sinful humans. The praise goes not to falible humans, but to our Perfect God in heaven, who blots out our sins by His love. -- Harry Edmon INTERNET: harry@atmos.washington.edu (206) 543-0547 UUCP: uw-beaver!atmos.washington.edu!harry Dept of Atmospheric Sciences, AK-40 University of Washington
murphy@mips.com (Mike Murphy) (11/10/89)
In article <Oct.29.21.13.42.1989.3214@athos.rutgers.edu> ASPRINGMAN@eagle.wesleyan.edu (DAYSPRING) writes: <To paraphrase, he complains that we praise Christians who admit to being <sinful more than pious Christians who are without sin. He suggests that <it is possible to live a holy life (post-conversion) without sin, e.g. >[some say] Humans are confined to sin until heaven. > To this I ask what the Resurection and the Cross were all about? What >does it mean that our old selves are crucified with Christ and that we are new >creations and that we are washed in the blood of Jesus, white as snow. Why >can't we walk in holiness? Who's to stop us if God is with us? This is an interesting question. I've met some Christians who believe that you can live a perfectly holy life, but certainly the orthodox view is that we will always be tainted by sin, even after accepting Christ into our life. Christ has conquered sin, and we partake of that through Christ but we do not conquer sin ourselves (until we reach heaven). Now we do improve and we can even become quite good at walking in the light, but we still "fall short of the glory of God". And if we fall even a little bit short we are still in sin and in need of God's grace. If you have ever climbed a mountain you know that the top keeps moving as you climb; you see the top and think you can reach it, but when you get there you find out that there is more mountain to climb; our pursuit of holiness is like that climb. There is much encouragement in the Bible to live a holy life, and we should always be striving to improve our walk with the Lord. We should also honor and respect those who do live relatively holy lives. But it can be dangerous to think that you have already reached a place of perfection. For then pride can enter and you may think that God accepts you because of your goodness rather than because of His grace. See Romans 7:7-25 for a description of Paul's own struggle with sin.
phys-bb@garnet.berkeley.edu (11/15/89)
In article <Nov.10.02.14.46.1989.11027@athos.rutgers.edu> jygabler@ucdavis.edu (Jason Gabler) writes: > > My point is this: we are constantly called to strive for perfections as >Christians. That is our goal, to be like Jesus.... I have to disagree with you there. When Jesus walked the earth he rebuked his disciples time and again for their lack of faith, not for their lack of perfection. Yes our goal (more accurately--God's goal for us) is to be like Jesus, but there is a large chasm between the goal and our state. We cannot bridge the chasm by striving for perfection. The only bridge is "grace through faith". Bridges have two points of connection to the land masses on either side. In this case the points of connection are God's free gift of grace and our trusting acts of faith. Faith is a work: it is an action based upon a belief (hopefully a belief in God's promises and in God's faithfulness to his word), supported by confidence. It is the only work worth doing. Now as regards sin, or more specifically the little individual sins in our life: those ARE bad, lamentable, tragic, and God abhores them. But we can't make ourselves righteous by trying to be righteous. It is God who will put his law in our minds and write it on our hearts (Jer. 31:35). When we have sinned (and we all do) we have a promise of God that we can lay hold of: "If we confess our sins He is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness." Again, it's God who does the cleansing. The endurance we need is the endurance to keep laying hold and possessing the myriad promises God has made, especially the ones that apply to our individual situations. With regard to our growth in holiness, there is no time for anything else in this world but to act in faith, and let God make us righteous. > But, obviusly we cannot be perfect while in imperfect bodies. Besides >we wouldn't really need Jesus if we could be perfect. Well said. I could not agree with you more. P.S. All of this presupposes that at least some tiny part of my being wants to follow God, and that at least some tiny part of my being is not satisfied with myself as I presently am. God has a way of running with what little faith we have and increasing it, as long as we actively trust him. phys-bb@garnet.berkeley.edu / ". . .into the narrow lanes, \ (John Warren) \ I can't stumble or stay put. . ." /
barry1@ihlpa.att.com (Barry O Olson) (11/17/89)
In article <Nov.15.04.47.40.1989.14700@athos.rutgers.edu>, phys-bb@garnet.berkeley.edu writes:
< When we have sinned (and we all do) we have a promise of God that we can
< lay hold of: "If we confess our sins He is faithful and just and will
This part here: "If we confess our sins... is quite an important If.
My question is to anyone out there: Is this refering to God? i.e. If
we confess our sins to God. Or, confess to those we have sinned
against? Or both? I have my own opinion, but would like to hear others.
barry olson
< forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness." Again,
< phys-bb@garnet.berkeley.edu / ". . .into the narrow lanes, \
< (John Warren) \ I can't stumble or stay put. . ." /phys-bb@garnet.berkeley.edu (11/20/89)
In article <Nov.17.04.32.15.1989.3566@athos.rutgers.edu> barry1@ihlpa.att.com (Barry O Olson) writes: >In article <Nov.15.04.47.40.1989.14700@athos.rutgers.edu>, phys-bb@garnet.berkeley.edu writes: >< When we have sinned (and we all do) we have a promise of God that we can >< lay hold of: "If we confess our sins He is faithful and just and will > >This part here: "If we confess our sins... is quite an important If. >My question is to anyone out there: Is this refering to God? i.e. If >we confess our sins to God. Or, confess to those we have sinned >against? Or both? I have my own opinion, but would like to hear others. > >barry olson I think as far as the forgiving & cleansing from sin are concerned, it means just 'confess to God.' But I think God certainly wants our relationships with each other to be healthy, so He wants us to confess our sins to those against whom we have sinned. The point is that we can confess to each other and still not be able to claim the promise of 1 John 1:9, and yet part of the cleansing means telling someone that you're sorry. But it should be left there: since I am accountable only to God and to those whom I have wronged, there is no need to confess to others not involved. phys-bb@garnet.berkeley.edu / ". . .into the narrow lanes, \ (John Warren) I can't stumble or stay put. . ." \ -- Dylan /
davem@watmath.waterloo.edu (Dave Mielke) (11/24/89)
In article <Nov.17.04.32.15.1989.3566@athos.rutgers.edu> barry1@ihlpa.att.com (Barry O Olson) writes: >This part here: "If we confess our sins... is quite an important If. >My question is to anyone out there: Is this refering to God? i.e. If >we confess our sins to God. Or, confess to those we have sinned >against? Or both? I have my own opinion, but would like to hear others. 1 John 1:9 is referring to the fact that God is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness if we confess our sins. It could not possibly refer to those people whom we have sinned against as they are incapable of cleansing us from all unrighteousness. Only the blood of Christ can do that. Note king David's confession after he committed adultery with Bath-Sheba and murdered Uriah. He confessed his sins to God, making it very clear that God alone was the one to whom he had to make his confession. In Psalm 51:4 he declares "Against thee, thee only, have I sinned, and done {this} evil in thy sight: that thou mightest be justified when thou speakest, {and} be clear when thou judgest.". When Potiphar's wife wanted Joseph to have sexual relations with her, he also responded in a way that indicates that all sin is against God alone. In Genesis 39:9 he declares "{There is} none greater in this house than I; neither hath he kept back any thing from me but thee, because thou {art} his wife: how then can I do this great wickedness, and sin against God?". This does not eliminate the need for our confessions to one another, but it does mean that we must also confess before God. If we have done something that has adversely affected someone else then we certainly ought to ask that person for forgiveness too. Matthew 5:23-24 says "Therefore if thou bring thy gift to the altar, and there rememberest that thy brother hath ought against thee; Leave there thy gift before the altar, and go thy way; first be reconciled to thy brother, and then come and offer thy gift.". We must remember, though, that God also defines our very thoughts as sinful. If I think a sinful thought against someone else then I had best keep that one entirely between myself and God. Confessing such a sin to the other person, who is probably quite unaware of it, would probably cause more harm than good. When confessing our sins to other people we should also take great care to insure that only those people against whom we have committed some particular sin hear its confession. Permitting others to become aware of it only plants the seeds for future gossip. Note that the term "confess" in the Scriptures does not just mean to admit a sin. It also means to make a sincere and permanent effort to turn from that sin. Dave Mielke, 613-726-0014 856 Grenon Avenue Ottawa, Ontario, Canada K2B 6G3
gross@dg-rtp.dg.com (Gene Gross) (11/29/89)
Several people have already responded to the posting from Andrew Springman. I'd like to add a couple of thoughts that struck me while reading through the responses. >> 1) Humans are defined as sinners. Humans are born with a sin nature that we've inherited from Adam and Eve. Now this sin nature is not what makes us a sinner. The sin nature is what predisposes us to committing sin; it is what makes yielding to temptation easy. What makes us sinners is the act of sinning. Simplistically, you could say that a person is a liar if they have lied but once. The same can be said for sin--you commit one sin you are a sinner. As long as the sin nature has its chains of bondage wrapped around us, we are bound to sin. This leads me to the second point: > >> 2) Humans are confined to sin until heaven. >> >> To this I ask what the Resurection and the Cross were all about? What >> does it mean that our old selves are crucified with Christ and that we are >> new creations and that we are washed in the blood of Jesus, white as snow. >> Why can't we walk in holiness? Who's to stop us if God is with us? The Cross is what shatters the chains of the sin nature. But the problem, as Paul so eloquently points out in Romans 7, is that our flesh has been used to sinning; and, futhermore, our flesh desires to sin. Does this mean that there isn't anything that we can do about sin this side of Home or the Second Coming--God forbid. We can do a lot to defeat sin and live more holy lives. But notice that I stop short here. I see two points of view here, though there may well be more. ;-) One is that we can't possibly overcome our sinful nature this side of Heaven. The other is that we can wipe out 99.9999% of sin in our lives. Both views can lead to serious problems in my estimation. To say that we can't overcome our sinful nature this side of Heaven is an admission of defeat. We are told that we are more than conquerors through Jesus Christ; also, we are told that if God be for us who can be against us. This says we have the power. Further, we are made new creatures when we come to Christ. So to say that we can't overcome our sinful nature to me is an erroneous statement. To conclude that because we have been given access to such great power and are new creatures, we can completely defeat sin is to also miss the boat. I find that the closer I draw to Christ the more I see sin for what it really is and the more clearly I see sin in my life that before I had been blind to. Finally, I must conclude that I will be fighting sin within my members until the day I die or the Second Coming, whichever is first. I make a simple anaology here. Sin is like a lethal narcotic. I'm a junky hooked on sin. Can I overcome my addiction? Yes, but I must always fight against that addiction. I must always be on guard to weed out any last vestige of it within me. For me, what works is to resist the temptation and then run immediately to my Father. It is in the arms of my Father that I have the strength to defeat the sin within that wants so desparately to yield to the temptation. Do I always succeed? Not 100% of the time. But some days are far better than others. Some days when I've been reading, studying, and meditating upon the Word and in much prayer, I find that I have no problems not yielding. Then other days when I've let the cares of this world flood in, when I find myself faced with the problems of earning a living and raising a family, I'm weak and I yield--suddenly there is anger and harsh words where there should be love and gentle words. At these times I thank God for Jesus Christ who is able to save me and through whom I have forgiveness. >> 3) Those people who are walking in the light are not being praised. >> >> If anyone should be praised it should be sinless humans not sinful >> humans. To which Harry Edmon responds: > >The praise goes not to falible humans, but to our Perfect God in >heaven, who blots out our sins by His love. I can only add that even when I'm clearly walking in the Light and the Spirit, I don't deserve any accolades or praise from anyone. That is what is expected of me--my due. I'm not deserving of praise because it is not me that is doing it but Jesus Christ. The Spirit indwells us both to *will* and *to do*. Peace to ya'll, Gene
phys-bb@garnet.berkeley.edu (12/04/89)
[This continues the discussion which started by asking who we are supposed to confess our sins to, God or those we sin against. This posting is a response to a comment from Dave Mielke (if I'm unscrambling the widgets correctly), that "confess" in Scripture means not just admitting a sin but turning from it. --clh] 'Confess' simply means to agree with, or 'to say the same thing'. So our only part (in the matter of dealing with our sins that have, in the course of our daily lives, reared their ugly heads) is to agree with God that our sin is wrong and to want to change (and I mean really WANT to change, and really see that the sin is abhorrent in God's eyes). My questions to you are: Who does the cleansing? If it's me (by making a "permanent effort"), then why does God need to cleanse me? If it's God, then why do I need to make the "permanent effort"? All our righteousness is but filthy rags, but let me go one step further: all our attempts at becoming righteous are worthless. The only worthy activity or effort is that of faith, or more specifically, applying God's specific promises to your specific problems/situations. There is no time to exercise will-worship by making permanent efforts to turn from sin. There is only time for faith. Too much garbage can happen during the times between your acts of faith if you wait to long (for whatever reason). It just so happens that having the attitude of, and doing acts of faith ARE the way that you make the permanent effort to turn from sin. phys-bb@garnet.berkeley.edu / ". . .into the narrow lanes, \ (John Warren) I can't stumble or stay put. . ." \ -- Dylan / [I think you are in violent agreement. I see nothing in Dave's comment to imply that anyone other than God does the cleansing. I think he meant the same thing you do in your second sentence. --clh]
jrossi@jato.jpl.nasa.gov (The Electric Sol) (12/07/89)
In article <Nov.29.00.40.12.1989.26054@athos.rutgers.edu> gross@dg-rtp.dg.com (Gene Gross) writes: > >Simplistically, you could say that a person is a liar if they have lied >but once. The same can be said for sin--you commit one sin you are a >sinner. So was the original act of disobedience, the act of a sinner. If a sinner is described as someone who disobeys God, the Adam and Eve can be described as sinners. I don't see how you can escape the conclusion that they were created as sinners, since once they had been created, they wasted little time before disobeying God. They were sinners *before* the fall. If they weren't sinners, they wouldn't have sinned, free will or not. I realize I've been harping about this point for some time, but no one has satisfactorily addressed this issue, except for perhaps "you're wrong...and you should accept that your wrong, or you'll go to hell." -- -jrossi@jato.jpl.nasa.gov "Constantly choosing the lesser of two evils -ames!elroy!jato!jrossi is still choosing evil." -Cptn. Trips **********************STANDARD DISCLAIMER******************************
harry@atmos.washington.edu (Harry Edmon) (12/11/89)
In article <Dec.7.02.30.08.1989.29999@athos.rutgers.edu> jrossi@jato.jpl.nasa.gov (The Electric Sol) writes: > I don't see how you can escape the conclusion that they [Adam and Eve] were > created as sinners, since once they had been created, they wasted little > time before disobeying God. They were sinners *before* the fall. If > they weren't sinners, they wouldn't have sinned, free will or not. The basic problems you run up against are the following: 1. What does "free will" mean? Why did God create us with it? 2. How can be reconcile the dual nature of God, i.e. a loving God and a righteous God? As to "free will", God create Adam and Eve with a choice on whether or not to obey him. Just because they were created with those options does not make them sinners. You are not a sinner because you have the opportunity to sin, only when you actually sin are you a sinner. As to why God created them (and us) that way, I believe it is because forced love is not love at all. The second question really arises from the question you asked in an earlier article "Why does God hate me?". You are certainly not alone in asking this. The whole book of Job deals with this question. Luther spent years in mental agony searching out an answer to this question "Why does God hate me?". We hve great trouble understanding a loving AND just God. We tend to either ignore the justice and claim that all are saved, or ignore the love and claim that all are doomed and that God hates us. But God is BOTH loving and righteous. He solves the dilema for us in the person of His Son, Jesus Christ and His death on the cross. Salvation is available to us all, all we need do is not reject the gift of faith in Christ Jesus. But this still does not negate God's justice and his condemnation of all who do not accept His freely given grace. -- Harry Edmon INTERNET: harry@atmos.washington.edu (206) 543-0547 UUCP: uw-beaver!atmos.washington.edu!harry Dept of Atmospheric Sciences, AK-40 University of Washington