jrossi@jato.jpl.nasa.gov (The Electric Sol) (12/07/89)
In article <Dec.3.12.48.22.1989.23182@athos.rutgers.edu> jhpb@lancia.garage.att.com writes: >>The difference between your two robbers is that one of them is repentant. If >>this is truly the case, he will be saved. The unrepentent bank robber faces >>the same fate as the unrepentant gossip, the unrepentant liar, and even the >>unrepentant pretty-good-guy and the unrepentant everyone-thinks-he's-a-saint. Most of the non-Christians I know ( myself included ) don't consider themselves saints, but are of the "I'm only human, I make mistakes" variety. Most of us are aware of our self-centeredness, and we try to overcome this by simply being aware, and pursuing virtue as its own reward. We don't think of ourselves as saved, nor delight in the implication that we have been spared the grisly fate that awaits those who think differently than we do, but rather, in complete honesty, feel that there are contradictions inherent in Christian thought in regards to Heaven/Hell. For me the idea that all of History is a ghastly acting out of souls arbitrarly being cast to flames, or spared, paints a picture of God that is too cruel to bear. It dosen't make sense to me. If it is true, then God must hate me. I must be one of those objects of wrath he created just to sit there and focus His magnifiying glass on. Even if I were somehow to "save" myself, there are many friends and family that I love, and care about. Somehow I can't see myself flying off to eternal peace, while they writhe in eternal agony. Its incomprehensible to me that a loving God is into all of this. Now of course, this could all be erroneous thinking, and me being man, cannot comprehend the ways of an almighty God, and am truely evil, even in my stumbling ignorance and honesty, in which case, I will be duely punished for that which, while I'm unconcious of it now, truely am, evil. The Calvinist would say I was created this way, and there's nothing I can do about. God hates me, and there's nothing I can do about it. The Free-Willers would say that I am somehow making a choice; that I am rejecting God's "Free" gift of salvation and therefore deserve what I get. So either God hates me from the beginning, or he hates me for rejecting his religion. Does God really hate me? Or does He love me? If he loves me does he continue to love me after I have died and gone to hell? -jrossi@jato.jpl.nasa.gov "Constantly choosing the lesser of two evils -ames!elroy!jato!jrossi is still choosing evil." -Cptn. Trips **********************STANDARD DISCLAIMER****************************** [This is an area in which Christians vary. We've had discussions in the past about whether God hates people or not. While there are certainly Biblical grounds for saying that God hates sinners, my impression is that most Christians prefer the formulation that he hates the sin and loves the sinner. If this is so, it's not entirely accurate to say that he hates you because you reject him. Rather, he is simply unwilling to override your choice, since that would negate your existence as an independent being. Again, there are varying concepts of hell. A common concept these days is that God doesn't intentionally create torments for those that reject him. Rather, its nature follows from the fact that it is a place filled with people who reject God. --clh]
jrossi@jato.jpl.nasa.gov (The Electric Sol) (12/11/89)
In article <Dec.7.02.29.12.1989.29963@athos.rutgers.edu> jrossi@jato.jpl.nasa.gov (The Electric Sol) writes: >[This is an area in which Christians vary. We've had discussions in ah, but Mr. Moderator, why the variance? I don't object to a diffence of opinion, in fact, it adds variety to life, however, for me, when the stakes are eternal damnation, why isn't there consistency within His Church? >the past about whether God hates people or not. While there are >certainly Biblical grounds for saying that God hates sinners, my >impression is that most Christians prefer the formulation that he >hates the sin and loves the sinner. If this is so, it's not entirely But is this formulation scriptural? If God truely loves the sinner, then He fails miserably. For the road is wide that leads to destruction, and narrow, that leads to life. So life was set up so that the majority of sinners would go to "hell" along with their sin. Either it was his intention that most of us would go to hell, or again, He has failed miserably. >accurate to say that he hates you because you reject him. Rather, he >is simply unwilling to override your choice, since that would negate >your existence as an independent being. I object. First, I don't consider myself an independent being, rather I feel wholly interdependent, and connected to a world which He created. I'm not sure what you mean by independent being, and I really don't think you mean = to God, rather perhaps you mean in the traditional sense that I have been given Free Will, however, any choices, or decisions I make using free will are influenced by both the software God programmed me with, and the situation I been placed into. By giving man free will, but placing him within the natural order, and subject to natural laws, and then giving him a moral code only a supernatural being could follow, is setting him up to fail, IMHO. >Again, there are varying >concepts of hell. A common concept these days is that God doesn't >intentionally create torments for those that reject him. Rather, its >nature follows from the fact that it is a place filled with people who >reject God. Why the varying concepts? Again, I have a hard time fathoming an almighty loving God UNintentionally creating a place of eternal torment. And for the record I don't hate God, nor reject Him, but rather I reject Christianity in its ongoing forms, and that the Bible is inerrant, and that this is the Only way. If anyone wants to suggest that this is tantamount to rejecting God, please explain why this particular path is so difficult for honest seekers such as myself to accept. -- -jrossi@jato.jpl.nasa.gov "Constantly choosing the lesser of two evils -ames!elroy!jato!jrossi is still choosing evil." -Cptn. Trips **********************STANDARD DISCLAIMER****************************** [The question of why variation exists in the Church is an interesting one. There is of course variation in people's answer to that question as well... I can only conclude that God does not care as much about doctrinal conformity as some Christians do. The main purpose of my comments was to suggest that you look around the Church a bit more carefully. I think there are many people whose position is similar to yours. --clh]
crowe@sci.ccny.cuny.edu (Daniel Crowe) (12/11/89)
In article <Dec.7.02.29.12.1989.29963@athos.rutgers.edu> jrossi@jato.jpl.nasa.gov (The Electric Sol) writes: >For me the idea that all of History is a ghastly acting out of souls >arbitrarly being cast to flames, or spared, paints a picture of God >that is too cruel to bear. It dosen't make sense to me. If it is >true, then God must hate me. I must be one of those objects of wrath >he created just to sit there and focus His magnifiying glass on. >Even if I were somehow to "save" myself, there are many friends and >family that I love, and care about. Somehow I can't see myself >flying off to eternal peace, while they writhe in eternal agony. >Its incomprehensible to me that a loving God is into all of this. It is incomprehesible to me, also, that God would torment unrepentant sinners forever in the sense that forever for the unrepentant sinners equals forever for the saved. The solution lies in the understanding of "forver". I am an annihilationist, which means that I believe that Hell/Hades/the lake of fire will cease to exist after a finite amount of time by which time all sin and unrepentant sinners will have been annihilated. The argument that the Bible claims that Hell will exist for an infinite of time can be refuted by a word/concept study of "forever". One example of "forever" lasting a finite amount of time occurs in the description of the desolation of the land of Edom. The Bible states: "Edom's streams will be turned into pitch, her dust into burning sulfur; her land will become blazing pitch! It will not be quenched night and day; its smoke will rise forever." (Isaiah 34:9-10,NIV) Clearly, the smoke of the desolation of Edom has ceased to rise. In this case, "forever" evidently means "until entirely consumed". Similarly, I interpret the Biblical passages that state that Hell lasts forever to mean that Hell lasts until sin is consumed and that this process takes a finite amount of time. -- Daniel (God is my judge) | "Everyone should be quick to listen, slow to physics graduate student | speak and slow to become angry, for man's City College of New York | anger does not bring about the righteous crowe@sci.ccny.cuny.edu | life that God desires." (James 1:19-20,NIV) [Jesus most commonly uses pretty generic wording, referring simply to Gehenna. However Mat 25:41,46 refers to eternal fire, and as does Mk 9:47-48 (in different terms), Rev 20, and 2 Thes 1:9. Rev 14:11 seems the clearest: "and the smoke of their torment goes up for ever and ever; and they have no rest". On the other hand, Lk 20:27-40 seems to support the concept that only the saved are resurrected. I think in order to adopt the annihilationist position, you're going to have to say that certain Biblical passages -- e.g. Rev 14:11 -- are simply wrong. Your interpretation will do for those that simply refer to eternal destruction, but Rev seems a bit too unambiguous to interpret away. That's not necessarily a problem for everyone. Those who don't accept inerrancy may well take the view that there are a number of different views of the Last Days in the Bible, not all of which are right in detail. That that case, you will presumably regard Mk 9:48 as a gloss, added on the basis of Is. 66:24. --clh]
jrossi@jato.Jpl.Nasa.Gov (The Electric Sol) (12/15/89)
> >[The question of why variation exists in the Church is an interesting >one. There is of course variation in people's answer to that question >as well... I can only conclude that God does not care as much about >doctrinal conformity as some Christians do. The main purpose of my All of which leads me to a place of "faith" wherein I trust God, and not the institutions. Your thoughts on this and other subjects, indeed, bring me warmth, and comfort, insomuch as you treat me with respect, and offer reasonable ways of approaching these questions. At least for the me central issue has become not what I believe about the doctrines, but what I believe about God. In fact, part of my dilemma is the apparent contradiction between what I believe about God, and what the religious writings teach. Some people seem willing to accept the "Word of God" regardless of what it says. The idea that it could be wrong, but still inspired, is unacceptable to them, but for me, I couldn't live with myself, if I didn't approach it in this manner. If one's father left for a faraway land, and he was known as a gentle loving man, wouldn't it be natural to contest reports that he was off in the faraway land butchering people. Wouldn't it be natural to supsect those reporting the details were perhaps confusing the matter. If I believe my Heavenly Father to be a kind, just, and merciful Being, can I doubt and give little credence to the notion that he really did approve of the genocide of the Caananites. >comments was to suggest that you look around the Church a bit more >carefully. I think there are many people whose position is similar to >yours. --clh] I agree...I am growing and changing, and the fact that there are people who agree with me here, is quite comforting. Thanks again. -- -jrossi@jato.jpl.nasa.gov "Constantly choosing the lesser of two evils -ames!elroy!jato!jrossi is still choosing evil." -Cptn. Trips **********************STANDARD DISCLAIMER******************************
jrossi@jato.jpl.nasa.gov (The Electric Sol) (12/15/89)
In article <Dec.11.04.16.47.1989.24805@athos.rutgers.edu> crowe@sci.ccny.cuny.edu (Daniel Crowe) writes: > >It is incomprehesible to me, also, that God would torment unrepentant >sinners forever in the sense that forever for the unrepentant sinners >equals forever for the saved. The solution lies in the understanding >of "forver". > >I am an annihilationist, which means that I believe that Hell/Hades/the >lake of fire will cease to exist after a finite amount of time by which >time all sin and unrepentant sinners will have been annihilated. The >argument that the Bible claims that Hell will exist for an infinite >of time can be refuted by a word/concept study of "forever". I, too, am comfortable with this. Interestingly, if God is anything like the angry, wrathful, jealous Jehova of the O.T., I might be inclined to forfeit eternal life with Him for the perfect peace of eternal annihalation. Now if he's like Jesus, and given to good food, a good glass of wine, music, and lounging about in gardens, and in the mountains, I might be more interested. :-) >[Jesus most commonly uses pretty generic wording, referring simply to >Gehenna. However Mat 25:41,46 refers to eternal fire, and as does Mk >9:47-48 (in different terms), Rev 20, and 2 Thes 1:9. Rev 14:11 seems >the clearest: "and the smoke of their torment goes up for ever and >ever; and they have no rest". On the other hand, Lk 20:27-40 seems to >support the concept that only the saved are resurrected. I think in You mean you have to be resurrected in order to go to hell? -jrossi@jato.jpl.nasa.gov "Constantly choosing the lesser of two evils -ames!elroy!jato!jrossi is still choosing evil." -Cptn. Trips **********************STANDARD DISCLAIMER******************************