[soc.religion.christian] Predestination and Romans 9

davidbu@tekigm2.men.tek.com (David Buxton) (12/15/89)

What about Romans 9:13?

     "Just as it is written: 'Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated." (Ro. 9:13)

Let us look at what Paul is quoting:

     "'I have loved you,' says the Lord.  'But you ask, "How have you loved
     us?"   Was  not  Esau  Jacob's  brother?'  the Lord says.  'Yet I have
     loved Jacob, but Esau I have hated, and I have  turned  his  mountains
     into  a  wasteland  and  left his inheritance to the desert jackals.'"
     (Malachi 1:2,3)

From Malachi it is clear how the cause and effect goes.  It is NOT  correct
to  say that God hated Esau and that is why Esau turned out the way he did.
God did not predestine what Esau would do.  God hates the  ways  (sins)  of
Esau and the ways of the generations that followed in the ways of Esau.

Let us understand what is meant by 'hated' in the Bible context:

     * Jacob's preference for Rachel is compared with his 'hatred' for Leah
     (Gen. 29:30,31)

     * Jesus speaks of 'hating' ones father and mother  (Luke  14:26).   We
     know He was not condoning the breaking of the 5th Commandment.

     * Jesus says those who 'hate' their life in this world will be  saved.
     (John 12:25)

     * Hate one and love the other .  .  .  .  cannot  serve  two  masters.
     (Matt. 6:24)

We often say - "God loves us even though He hates our sin".    I  think  we
know  enough  about God and Bible language to know that God loved Esau even
though he hated the sins of Esau and the sins of those who followed him for
generations to follow.

What about Romans 9:15?

     "I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on
     whom I have compassion."

Paul is quoting from Exodus 33:17-20.  The context is Mt. Sinaii and God is
telling  Moses that he cannot see God's face.  The issue in this chapter is
not personal salvation, but rather God's right to favor His chosen  people.
And  we  learn that this special favor comes about when they do things that
God directs them to do and the favors diminish as they fail to  do  as  God
directs.  I don't see this as a matter of awards vs vengeance but rather in
the same way that a smoker suffers for his smoking and a  drinker  for  his
alcoholism.   God  had  a favored people when they worshiped Him and a pun-
ished people when the got into idolatry, child/human  sacrifice  and  other
gross heathenisms.  "You cannot serve two masters.

Verse 17 talks about Pharaoh.  Paul is referring to Exodus 9:16.   This  is
clearly  at  a time when Pharaoh has survived some pretty miserable plagues
and was probably so sick they thought he would die.  God raised Pharaoh  up
from  his  sick bed for a purpose.

Verse 18 talks about hardening whom He wants to harden.  Pharaoh had  prom-
ised to let the slaves go if each plague was removed.

     "But when Pharaoh saw that there was relief, he hardened his heart and
     would  not  listen  to  Moses  and  Aaron, just as the Lord had said."
     (Exodus 8:15)

Each plague had to be worse and Pharaoh's heart grew harder.  Was its God's
persistence that hardened Pharaoh's heart or can we safely let Pharaoh take
responsibility for his own actions and attitude?  If it was  God  who  har-
dened  Pharaoh's heart then why does it say:  "How long wilt thou refuse to
humble yourself before me?" (Ex. 10:3)  God was clearly waiting for Pharaoh
to let His people go.

Dave (David E. Buxton)

davidbu@tekigm2.MEN.TEK.COM