palosaari@oxy.edu (Jedidiah Jon Palosaari) (11/24/89)
In numerous places in the old and new testament it states no to test God. Yet in Malachi 3:10 it states "Bring the whole tithe into the storehouse, that there may be food in my house. Test me in this," says the LORD Almighty," and see if I will not throw open the floodgates of heaven and pour out so much blessing that you will not have room enough for it." Here God tells us to test Him. I looked at all the other "testing" passages I could find, and each time it either tells us to not test God, or states that God tests man. And even in Malachai, although it doesn't mention the word test, it says in 2:17 You have wearied the LORD with your words... in what seems to be a test of God. Does anyone know why it would state in this one passage that it's ok to test God? Is the Hebrew here different perhaps? Eager for *any* answers, Jedidiah Palosaari
haroldt@nexus.yorku.ca (Harold Tomlinson) (11/25/89)
Hello :)
I'm new to this so I don't know just what the average stand is here.
I too would be very interested in what the Hebrew indicates. I hope
to study Greek and Hebrew next year simply because of the deficiencies
in the English language. We use the term 'test' and sometimes the
word 'try' to mean examine in a way that is a challenge. A test of your
skill, a trying situation, are things set forth to challenge you in
an attitude of doubt. Then we also use the same terms to mean 'check it
out'. My conclusion from the Book is that we should trust Yahweh. Don't
challenge Him with prayers like "God, I'll do this for You if You'll
just do this for me." Don't test His patience... "Oh, God, just one more
chance..." But on the other hand, check it out. See for yourself if
He's not all that He claims to be. In the reference you gave (Malachi
3:10) the Lord is promising that He will give to those who give to Him
(what He already ownes and what we owe Him). And this has been proven
(tried) over and over again in my life. Take today for example. I am
literally flat broke. To the point where I couldn't buy fuel to go
anywhere tomorrow. But. This months pay has come in early. Luck? Not
likely. Just God's good timing. If it happened once, I'd say I was
lucky. But this happens repeatedly. I'm not testing God by squandering
all my funds and trusting Him for more, but He has always provided for
me when I let Him be in control.
Jehovah Jira (My God will provide),
Harold.
ps. anyone know the Hebrew words used there and in other places for test?
--
Harold Tomlinson
Computing Advisor
Academic Computing Services
York University
4700 Keele St., North York (Toronto)
Ontario, Canada. M3J 1P3
haroldt@orion.yorku.ca
haroldt@vm1.yorku.ca
haroldt@nexus.yorku.ca
[I don't know anything about the Hebrew, but it seems to me that there
are two pretty obviously different contexts involved. In Mal 3:10 the
"test" consists of people doing what God commands, and verifying that
the results are good. This seems rather different than the sort of
manufactured test that Christ refuses in Mat 4:7. Yet another type of
"test" is Ex 17:7. There is seems that what is being tried is the
Lord's patience. That is, it seems that people have lost faith in
him. "they put the Lord to the proof by saying 'Is the LORD among us
or not?'" This sounds to me like a rhetorical question, with the
implied answer "no". NJPS translates "tried the Lord", which I read
in the sense of "were a trial to the Lord".
I think it would be wrong to come to the conclusion that God opposes
people honestly questioning him. The implication of Job seems to be
that God prefers honest hostility to easy answers. Judges 6:36 is an
example of someone testing God without any obvious disapproval.
--clh]crowe@sci.ccny.cuny.edu (Daniel Crowe) (11/27/89)
In article <Nov.23.22.27.11.1989.26759@athos.rutgers.edu> palosaari@oxy.edu (Jedidiah Jon Palosaari) writes: >In numerous places in the old and new testament it states not to test God. >Yet in Malachi 3:10 it states: >"Bring the whole tithe into the storehouse, that there may be food in my >house. Test me in this," says the LORD Almighty," and see if I will not >throw open the floodgates of heaven and pour out so much blessing that you >will not have room enough for it." >Here God tells us to test Him. I looked at all the other "testing" passages >I could find, and each time it either tells us to not test God, or states >that God tests man. >Does anyone know why it would state in this one passage that it's ok to >test God? Is the Hebrew here different perhaps? I looked up the word translated "test" ("prove" in the KJV) in Malachi 3:10 in *Strong's Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible* and came up with the following information: I. The Hebrew word translated "test" ("prove") can be transliterated as ^ (note: this is an accent on the letter a below.) bachan (pronounced "baw-khan'") which is a primitive root meaning "to test" (especially metals) or generally and figuatively "to investigate". ^ A. bachan appears the following 29 times in the Old Testament: occurance verse KJV NIV subject object 1 Gen 42:15 proved tested (Joseph) brothers 2 16 " " " brothers' words 3 1Ch 29:17 triest test God (David's) heart 4 Job 7:18 try " (God) man 5 12:11 " " ear words 6 23:10 tried tested (God) Job 7 34: 3 trieth tests ear words 8 36 tried tested (God?) Job 9 Ps 7: 9 trieth searches God minds & hearts 10 11: 4 try examine YHWH's eyes sons of men 11 5 trieth examines YHWH righteous 12 17: 3 proved probe " heart 13 26: 2 examine test " me (David) 14 66:10 proved tested God us (?) 15 81: 7 " " " Israelites 16 95: 9 " " Israelites God 17 139:23 try test God me (David) 18 Pr 17: 3 trieth tests YHWH heart 19 Jer 6:27 try test you(Jeremiah?) Israelites' ways 20 9: 7 " " YHWH Israelites 21 11:20 triest " " heart & mind 22 12: 3 tried " " Jeremiah's thoughts 23 17:10 try examine " mind 24 20:12 triest " " righteous 25 Eze 21:13 trial testing " will surely come 26 Zec 13: 9 try test " (Israelites) 27 9 tried ---- ---- gold 28 Mal 3:10 prove test (Israelites) YHWH 29 15 tempt challenge those who God challenge ^ B. Bachan appears to be neutral in and of itself; any positive or negative implication must be derived from the context. ^ II. I was able to locate the following 3 derivatives of bachan, each of which occurs only once: ^ ^ A. bachown' (pronounced "baw-khone'") which means "an assayer of metals". It appears in Jeremiah 6:27 where it is mistakenly translated "tower" in the KJV. (See C below) ^ B. bochan (pronounced "bo'-khan") which means "trial". It appears in Isaiah 28:16 in a prophecy of Christ. "See, I lay a stone in Zion, a *tested* stone, a precious cornerstone for a sure foundation; the one who trusts will never be dismayed." (NIV) C. bachan (pronounced "bakh'-an") which means "watchtower". It appears in Isaiah 32:14. (Note that there are no accents on bachan.) -- Daniel (God is my judge) | "Everyone should be quick to listen, slow to physics graduate student | speak and slow to become angry, for man's City College of New York | anger does not bring about the righteous crowe@sci.ccny.cuny.edu | life that God desires." (James 1:19-20,NIV)
davem@watmath.waterloo.edu (Dave Mielke) (11/29/89)
In article <Nov.23.22.27.11.1989.26759@athos.rutgers.edu> palosaari@oxy.edu (Jedidiah Jon Palosaari) writes: >In numerous places in the old and new testament it states no to test God. >Yet in Malachi 3:10 it states > >"Bring the whole tithe into the storehouse, that there may be food in my >house. Test me in this," says the LORD Almighty," and see if I will not >throw open the floodgates of heaven and pour out so much blessing that you >will not have room enough for it." > >Here God tells us to test Him. There is a marked difference with respect to our actions, i.e. how we are testing God. This passage is inviting us to test God, i.e. verify that He will honour His promises, by living in a way that brings glory to Him. The other passages command us not to test Him by deliberately doing something that we feel would obligate Him to do something according to our own wills. Dave Mielke, 613-726-0014 856 Grenon Avenue Ottawa, Ontario, Canada K2B 6G3
jmoon@lehi3b15.csee.lehigh.edu (Jonggu Moon [890911]) (12/15/89)
Are you implying then, that when Malachi quotes God as saying 'Test Me' it is a different "test" than if God tests us ? If so, then we can use this alternate meaning of "test" as applying to how God tests us. Sort of dilutes the significance of it. ^>*<^Jon