[soc.religion.christian] Testing God

palosaari@oxy.edu (Jedidiah Jon Palosaari) (11/24/89)

In numerous places in the old and new testament it states no to test God.
Yet in Malachi 3:10 it states

"Bring the whole tithe into the storehouse, that there may be food in my
house.	Test me in this," says the LORD Almighty," and see if I will not
throw open the floodgates of heaven and pour out so much blessing that you
will not have room enough for it."

Here God tells us to test Him.	I looked at all the other "testing" passages
I could find, and each time it either tells us to not test God, or states
that God tests man.  And even in Malachai, although it doesn't mention the
word test, it says in 2:17

You have wearied the LORD with your words...

in what seems to be a test of God.
Does anyone know why it would state in this one passage that it's ok to
test God?  Is the Hebrew here different perhaps?

Eager for *any* answers,

		  Jedidiah Palosaari

haroldt@nexus.yorku.ca (Harold Tomlinson) (11/25/89)

Hello :)

  I'm new to this so I don't know just what the average stand is here.

  I too would be very interested in what the Hebrew indicates.  I hope
to study Greek and Hebrew next year simply because of the deficiencies
in the English language.  We use the term 'test' and sometimes the 
word 'try' to mean examine in a way that is a challenge.  A test of your
skill, a trying situation, are things set forth to challenge you in
an attitude of doubt.  Then we also use the same terms to mean 'check it
out'.  My conclusion from the Book is that we should trust Yahweh.  Don't
challenge Him with prayers like "God, I'll do this for You if You'll 
just do this for me."  Don't test His patience... "Oh, God, just one more
chance..."  But on the other hand, check it out.  See for yourself if
He's not all that He claims to be.  In the reference you gave (Malachi
3:10) the Lord is promising that He will give to those who give to Him
(what He already ownes and what we owe Him).  And this has been proven
(tried) over and over again in my life.  Take today for example.  I am 
literally flat broke.  To the point where I couldn't buy fuel to go 
anywhere tomorrow.  But.  This months pay has come in early.  Luck?  Not
likely.  Just God's good timing.  If it happened once, I'd say I was 
lucky.  But this happens repeatedly.  I'm not testing God by squandering
all my funds and trusting Him for more, but He has always provided for
me when I let Him be in control.


        Jehovah Jira (My God will provide),

                      Harold.


ps.  anyone know the Hebrew words used there and in other places for test?

--
Harold Tomlinson
Computing Advisor
Academic Computing Services
York University
4700 Keele St., North York (Toronto)
Ontario, Canada.  M3J 1P3

haroldt@orion.yorku.ca
haroldt@vm1.yorku.ca
haroldt@nexus.yorku.ca

[I don't know anything about the Hebrew, but it seems to me that there
are two pretty obviously different contexts involved.  In Mal 3:10 the
"test" consists of people doing what God commands, and verifying that
the results are good.  This seems rather different than the sort of
manufactured test that Christ refuses in Mat 4:7.  Yet another type of
"test" is Ex 17:7.  There is seems that what is being tried is the
Lord's patience.  That is, it seems that people have lost faith in
him.  "they put the Lord to the proof by saying 'Is the LORD among us
or not?'"  This sounds to me like a rhetorical question, with the
implied answer "no".  NJPS translates "tried the Lord", which I read
in the sense of "were a trial to the Lord".  

I think it would be wrong to come to the conclusion that God opposes
people honestly questioning him.  The implication of Job seems to be
that God prefers honest hostility to easy answers.  Judges 6:36 is an
example of someone testing God without any obvious disapproval.

--clh]

crowe@sci.ccny.cuny.edu (Daniel Crowe) (11/27/89)

In article <Nov.23.22.27.11.1989.26759@athos.rutgers.edu> palosaari@oxy.edu (Jedidiah Jon Palosaari) writes:
>In numerous places in the old and new testament it states not to test God.
>Yet in Malachi 3:10 it states:

>"Bring the whole tithe into the storehouse, that there may be food in my
>house.	Test me in this," says the LORD Almighty," and see if I will not
>throw open the floodgates of heaven and pour out so much blessing that you
>will not have room enough for it."

>Here God tells us to test Him.	I looked at all the other "testing" passages
>I could find, and each time it either tells us to not test God, or states
>that God tests man.

>Does anyone know why it would state in this one passage that it's ok to
>test God?  Is the Hebrew here different perhaps?

I looked up the word translated "test" ("prove" in the KJV) in Malachi 3:10
in *Strong's Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible* and came up with the
following information:

I. The Hebrew word translated "test" ("prove") can be transliterated as
    ^ (note: this is an accent on the letter a below.)
   bachan (pronounced "baw-khan'") which is a primitive root meaning
   "to test" (especially metals) or generally and figuatively
   "to investigate".
      ^
  A. bachan appears the following 29 times in the Old Testament:

    occurance  verse     KJV        NIV       subject        object

        1    Gen 42:15  proved     tested     (Joseph)       brothers
        2           16    "          "           "           brothers' words
        3    1Ch 29:17  triest     test       God            (David's) heart
        4    Job  7:18  try         "         (God)          man
        5        12:11   "          "         ear            words
        6        23:10  tried      tested     (God)          Job
        7        34: 3  trieth     tests      ear            words
        8           36  tried      tested     (God?)         Job
        9    Ps   7: 9  trieth     searches   God            minds & hearts
       10        11: 4  try        examine    YHWH's eyes    sons of men
       11            5  trieth     examines   YHWH           righteous
       12        17: 3  proved     probe       "             heart
       13        26: 2  examine    test        "             me (David)
       14        66:10  proved     tested     God            us (?)
       15        81: 7    "          "         "             Israelites
       16        95: 9    "          "        Israelites     God
       17       139:23  try        test       God            me (David)
       18    Pr  17: 3  trieth     tests      YHWH           heart
       19    Jer  6:27  try        test       you(Jeremiah?) Israelites' ways
       20         9: 7   "          "         YHWH           Israelites
       21        11:20  triest      "          "             heart & mind
       22        12: 3  tried       "          "             Jeremiah's thoughts
       23        17:10  try        examine     "             mind
       24        20:12  triest        "        "             righteous
       25    Eze 21:13  trial      testing     "             will surely come
       26    Zec 13: 9  try        test        "             (Israelites)
       27            9  tried      ----       ----           gold
       28    Mal  3:10  prove      test       (Israelites)   YHWH
       29           15  tempt      challenge  those who      God
                                              challenge
      ^
  B. Bachan appears to be neutral in and of itself; any positive or negative
     implication must be derived from the context.
                                                         ^
II. I was able to locate the following 3 derivatives of bachan, each of which
    occurs only once:
      ^  ^
  A. bachown' (pronounced "baw-khone'") which means "an assayer of metals".
              It appears in Jeremiah 6:27 where it is mistakenly translated
              "tower" in the KJV.  (See C below)
      ^
  B. bochan (pronounced "bo'-khan") which means "trial".  It appears in
            Isaiah 28:16 in a prophecy of Christ.

            "See, I lay a stone in Zion, a *tested* stone,
            a precious cornerstone for a sure foundation;
              the one who trusts will never be dismayed." (NIV)

  C. bachan (pronounced "bakh'-an") which means "watchtower".  It appears in
            Isaiah 32:14.  (Note that there are no accents on bachan.)

-- 
Daniel (God is my judge) | "Everyone should be quick to listen, slow to
physics graduate student |  speak and slow to become angry, for man's
City College of New York |  anger does not bring about the righteous
crowe@sci.ccny.cuny.edu  |  life that God desires." (James 1:19-20,NIV)

davem@watmath.waterloo.edu (Dave Mielke) (11/29/89)

In article <Nov.23.22.27.11.1989.26759@athos.rutgers.edu> palosaari@oxy.edu (Jedidiah Jon Palosaari) writes:
>In numerous places in the old and new testament it states no to test God.
>Yet in Malachi 3:10 it states
>
>"Bring the whole tithe into the storehouse, that there may be food in my
>house.	Test me in this," says the LORD Almighty," and see if I will not
>throw open the floodgates of heaven and pour out so much blessing that you
>will not have room enough for it."
>
>Here God tells us to test Him.
There is a marked difference with respect to our actions, i.e. how we
are testing God. This passage is inviting us to test God, i.e. verify
that He will honour His promises, by living in a way that brings glory
to Him. The other passages command us not to test Him by deliberately
doing something that we feel would obligate Him to do something
according to our own wills.
 
    Dave Mielke, 613-726-0014
    856 Grenon Avenue
    Ottawa, Ontario, Canada
    K2B 6G3

jmoon@lehi3b15.csee.lehigh.edu (Jonggu Moon [890911]) (12/15/89)

Are you implying then, that when Malachi quotes God as saying
'Test Me' it is a different "test" than if God tests us ?

If so, then we can use this alternate meaning of "test" as applying
to how God tests us. Sort of dilutes the significance of it.

^>*<^Jon