davidbu@tekigm2.men.tek.com (David Buxton) (11/10/89)
Here what one of my net friends had to say. ------ >Subject: Re: Born Again, >Hi Dave, >We disagree on another point, that is, "once saved always saved". I >believe there are very many scripture passages to support this. >Appeals to reason and reflection upon God's nature supports this as >well I believe. ------ I would like to see some discussion on both sides of this, on s.r.c. Thanks, Dave
davidbu@tekigm2.men.tek.com (David Buxton) (11/10/89)
In private dialog it has become obvious that predestination and "once saved always saved" go hand in hand. If you subscribe to predestination then "once saved always saved" would appear to be obvious. It should be obvious that God would not un-choose you if you are one that He chose. So, I would like to limit the scope of my previous question. There has already been enough discussion on predestination. No reason to re-open that discussion. So, I wonder if there is anyone who subscribes to the Arminian view and at the same time subscribes to "once saved always saved"? Peace, Dave
pgaughan@nmsu.edu (11/15/89)
Well, here's one problem I have with it: There are examples of Christians in the NT that fell away from the faith (Ananias, Saphira, Demas, Hymenaeus...) The problem with this doctrine is that it requires us to judge the hearts of these people by saying "well, they must have never REALLY believed in the first place." This also fools people into believing that they themselves can never fall. Hebrews 6:1-6 describes the state of one who is enlightened and then falls away. Peter describes one who turns from the call of Christ back to the world as a dog returning to his own vomit. I think it is clear that this doctrine is not scriptural. Patrick Gaughan
wcsa@iwtdr.att.com (Willard C Smith) (11/15/89)
In article <Nov.10.02.32.18.1989.11600@athos.rutgers.edu>, davidbu@tekigm2.men.tek.com (David Buxton) writes: >So, I wonder if there is anyone who subscribes to the Arminian view and >at the same time subscribes to "once saved always saved"? I think that it would be possible to accept "once saved always saved" (the Assurance of Salvation idea) if and only if one ultimately rejected Free Will. I've heard lots of Fundie types argue Free Will and Assurance of Salvation, but it appears to arise from the lack of reflection rather than any firm theological basis. When I have confronted those individuals with the contradictory point (Free Will implys that Grace can be resisted), they either go into self-denial mode or Reject Free Will. One fundie attempted to escape the dilemma by telling me that after one accepted Christ, their Free Will was done away with. All that does is emphasis the contradiction, ie. Grace can be resisted, but Grace cannot be resisted. In short, I believe that it is logical contradiction to accept Free Will and Assurance of Salvation. If someone could reconcile the contradiction, there would probably be a zillion grateful people out there who could then *truely* argue (for the first time) that works could be a "fruit" of faith. -- 1100 E. Warrenville Rd., Naperville, IL Willard C. Smith (708) 979-0024 att!iwtdr!wcsa "It's life, Captain, but not as we know it." [Let's distinguish two ideas: "Perseverence" is the idea that when someone has been chosen by God there is no way he can lose that status. This is probably what "once saved always saved" refers to. "Assurance of salvation" means that people who are saved know that they are saved, and have complete confidence in their salvation. These doctrines are not identical. It would be possible to believe that election is forever, but that those who are elect are still subject to doubts and fears, and so do not necessarily have assurance of salvation. Similarly, it appears that John Wesley -- particularly early in his career -- believed that the Christian experience normally includes a supernatural assurance of salvation, but did not believe in perserverence in the usual sense. --clh]
davem@watmath.waterloo.edu (Dave Mielke) (11/15/89)
In article <Nov.10.02.28.21.1989.11454@athos.rutgers.edu> davidbu@tekigm2.men.tek.com (David Buxton) writes: >I would like to see some discussion on both sides of this, on s.r.c. I realize that you specifically stated that you did not want to hear from one who believed in predestination because one who does believe in predestination has to believe in the impossibility of losing one's salvation. I am one who most definitely believes in predestination, so I hope you will forgive me for responding. I shall not even raise the topic when discussing the question you raised. I shall stick to your question and only use the Scriptures as a basis for discussion. A person's position with respect to one doctrin must never impact his position with respect to another because he should not use his own reasoning to link the two. If he cannot defend either position on its own then he is using more than the Word of God, i.e. his own faulty human reasoning, and that is something we are warned not to do. The two different topics must be individually assessed. Then, if we dare, we may try to understand God's reasoning for having done it that way. John 3:14-15 says "And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up: That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.". This passage clearly says that as soon as someone believes in Jesus he has eternal life. If a person were able to lose his salvation then Jesus would not have been able to state so definitely that that person had eternal life. Eternal life cannot end. A person can only have eternal life if there is no further possibility of it ever ending. 2 Corinthians 5:21 says "For he hath made him {to be} sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.". If Jesus became sin for me then what sin could I possibly commit that His blood does not cover? The Scriptures do teach that there is one sin, blasphemy of the Holy Spirit, which cannot be forgiven. This particular sin is described as claiming that Jesus derived His power from Satan. If an unsaved person ever does this then God would not save him. A saved person, knowing full well that his salvation is from God, would never make this claim. All other sins, including every possible sin that a saved person might ever commit, are forgivable. The blood of Jesus pays for all of a saved person's sins. Even if the loss of salvation were a real possibility, there is nothing that a saved person could ever do to cause its loss. There is also certainly nothing that God would do to cause its loss. Ephesians 1:13-14 (earnest means guarantee) says "In whom ye also {trusted}, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.". This passage alone tells us many things. This single passage tells us many things. God has purchased those who receive salvation. There is no Scripture in the entire Bible where He says that He will ever sell us. The Holy Spirit is the guarantee that we shall receive our inheritance. Our inheritance is eternal life. This guarantee is good until the day of redemption, i.e. until we enter heaven. The Holy Spirit, being God Himself, never breaks a promise. This fact alone indicates that salvation cannot be lost. The reason we become saved is to bring praise to God's glory. He wouldn't bring too much praise to His glory if He were to fail at even one task. If He were to save someone, only to have that person subsequently lose His salvation, then God would look a little impotent and, thereby, lose esteem in the eyes of others, especially Satan. We must never forget that the real battle is between God and Satan. Saved people belong to God's army and unsaved people and the fallen angels belong to Satan's army. God fully intends to win and not suffer any losses. Having it any other way would not be doing all to the glory of God, and God Himself obeys every single one of His own commandments. 1 Corinthians 10:31 says "Whether therefore ye eat, or drink, or whatsoever ye do, do all to the glory of God.". Back to Ephesians 1:13-14. We become sealed by the Holy Spirit at the point when we receive salvation. We can, therefore, not lose our salvation until that seal is broken. A further search of the Scriptures is necessary to find out exactly what it would take to break this seal. Ephesians 4:30 says "And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.". Our seal by the Holy Spirit will also last until the day of redemption. We need not fear the loss of our salvation from the time we become saved until we enter heaven. I do not believe that I need to prove that we need not fear being tossed out of heaven. We need not, therefore, ever fear the loss of our salvation. There are a few Scriptures which many people use to attempt to show that salvation can be lost. I shall select the one which appears to state this fact the most strongly and then show why this would be an incorrect interpretation of it. Hebrews 6:4-6 says "For {it is} impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put {him} to an open shame.". Anyone who reads this Scripture and does not check out its context would be left with the feeling that its meaning is obvious. Since the Bible teaches that salvation cannot be lost, this should be a clue that the apparently obvious meaning of such a Scripture is not what it is really saying. With this particular Scripture, all one need do is read the rest of the chapter. Hebrews 6:9 says "But, beloved, we are persuaded better things of you, and things that accompany salvation, though we thus speak.". In other words, this verse is telling us that the preceding verses were referring to something less than salvation. The chapter goes on to describe how salvation is the result of a divine promise, and states that God never breaks a promise because He never tells a lie. In this same chapter God goes out of His way to illustrate the extra special nature of the promise of salvation by reminding us that He did something that He did not really have to do. Usually God just declares something and we believe it. In this case, though, He took the unusual step of swaring by an oath that He would keep this particular promise. If the retention of our salvation depended, even minutely, on our ability to hang onto it, then the declarations that we can have the assurance of our salvation would be a complete mockery because no one of us possesses the ability to continually be worthy of it. We do not know when we will die, and our strength is likely to be at its lowest level at the point of death because of all the suffering that usually accompanies it. With this in mind, I would like to conclude by quoting a couple of those Scriptures which, being the Word of God, we know we can take seriously. Romans 8:15-17 says "For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father. The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God: And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with {him}, that we may be also glorified together.". 1 John 5:13 says "These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.". Dave Mielke, 613-726-0014 856 Grenon Avenue Ottawa, Ontario, Canada K2B 6G3
jhpb@lancia.garage.att.com (11/15/89)
How does what happened to Jimmy Swaggart fit in with "once saved, always saved"? The way I see the "once saved, always saved" issue, we always retain our ability to reject God's grace, until we're dead. Joe Buehler [Of course Swaggart's experience doesn't necessarily mean that he is damned, just that he has fallen for the moment. The idea of perseverence is not that the elect make no mistakes, are spared all doubts, etc. It is really a consequence of passages such as Jn 6:39-40 or Jn 10:29, which teach confidence that those who have been given to Christ will be preserved. --clh]
davidbu@tekigm2.men.tek.com (David Buxton) (11/17/89)
Two parables come to mind when considering 'once saved always saved': * The ten virgins waiting for the bride-groom. Ten were apparantly 'saved' but 5 let their supply of 'oil' run out. * The seed that fell among several different types of soil. Of all the seed of the gospel that sprouted not all grew to full maturity. A lot of it withered and died. To say 'once saved always saved' is like saying 'once married always married'. I can be secure in my marriage but I can also walk away from it. I can be secure in Jesus Christ, my perfect partner. I can also walk away from this relationship. We all have the freedom to choose Him or to walk away from Him at any time. God is Love and a key facet of that love is freedom. Choose ye this day whom ye will serve and let it be the Lord. The Lord takes no delight in the reward of the wicked. He has predestined a plan of salvation for everyone. We can accept it or reject it. I love my Jesus, Dave
lab@fibercom.com (Lance Beckner) (11/17/89)
In article <Nov.10.02.32.18.1989.11600@athos.rutgers.edu>, davidbu@tekigm2.men.tek.com (David Buxton) writes: > > reason to re-open that discussion. So, I wonder if there is > anyone who subscribes to the Arminian view and at the same time > subscribes to "once saved always saved"? I really don't want to get involved in an argument or debate. I don't have the time to do so right now. So let me just say up front that I know there will be many who disagree with me. That is fine. You are more than welcome to post your disagreements. But please don't expect me to respond. Chances are that I have heard most of your arguments in the past. The only reason that I am posting is to answer the question above as best I can, given my current understanding of scripture and relationship with the Lord. Disclaimer: Please insert "IMHO" wherever you see it as being appropriate. I. I do not believe in predestination. At least not in the sense that most people think of when they talk of predestination. Although admittedly, I am still trying to iron out this issue. I believe that God has made a legitimate offer to all of mankind. Whosoever believes in God's provision for man's sin problem, and accepts Jesus Christ as Savior, will be saved. II. I think we need to look first at the basics of salvation. That is, how and why are we saved. What is it that we must do to be saved. I'm sure that most people are aware of the fact that we are saved by God's grace through our faith in Christ Jesus (Eph 2:8,9). That we are saved by believing in Jesus Christ (John 3:16, Acts 16:31). And that there is nothing we can do to earn our salvation (Titus 3:5). III. Now we need to look at what exactly happens when we accept Jesus Christ as Savior. And how (if) that changes the rest of our life. I see basically two things happening when we come to trust Christ as Savior. (1) Our old self is put to death. (2) We are "born again" -- given new life in Christ Jesus. Let's look at Romans: 6:1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin that grace may abound? 6:2 Certainly not! How shall we who died to sin live any longer in it? 6:3 Or do you not know that as many of us as were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into His death? 6:4 Therefore we were buried with Him through baptism into death, that just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. we walk in newness of life because we have been crucified with Christ (Gal 2:20). God then makes us alive (Eph 2:4,5). we are alive in the spirit because we have been born again. 6:5 For if we have been united together in the likeness of His death, certainly we also shall be in the likeness of His resurrection, 6:6 knowing this, that our old man was crucified with Him, that the body of sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves of sin. our old man was crucified with Christ. The old is dead and we are given new life. 6:7 For he who has died has been freed from sin. 6:8 Now if we died with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with Him, 6:9 knowing that Christ, having been raised from the dead, dies no more. Death no longer has dominion over Him. 6:10 For the death that He died, He died to sin once for all; but the life that He lives, He lives to God. 6:11 Likewise you also, reckon yourselves to be dead indeed to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus our Lord. 2 Cor 5:17 Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; old things have passed away; behold, all things have become new. IV. As I see it, once God crucifies that "old man". He will not restore him to life. Also, when we are born again, we are born into God's family. We become children of God (Eph 1:5, 1 John 3:1). Sure, we still sin (Rom 7:15-25), but that does not change our status as God's children (1 John 1:9, 2:1). As an example, I could use my own children. They may move away, stop writing and calling, even change their name. But they will still be my children. V. We need to keep in mind, that just as there is nothing *we* can do to *earn* our salvation, there is nothing *we* can do to *keep* our salvation. If we begin to believe that our salvation (earning or keeping) is dependent on something *we* do, we are falling into the trap of works. Paul encountered this problem with the Church in Galatia: O foolish Galatians! Who has bewitched you that you should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ was clearly portrayed among you as crucified? This only I want to learn from you: Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? Are you so foolish? Having begun in the Spirit, are you now being made perfect by the flesh? (Galatians 3:1-3) (btw, if we truly believe that we are saved by believing/accepting, then the only way we *could* lose our salvation, would be to stop believing and start rejecting. In which case I would seriously question whether or not that person was ever truly saved because I can't imagine anyone rejecting Christ *after* He had come into their life.) VI. A few other scriptural reasons why I believe the way that I do: Romans 8:38, 39 tells us that nothing can separate us from the love of God. In John 6:37, Jesus says that those that come to Him, He will by no means cast out. In 1 Cor 5:5, Paul tells the Church to deliver the sinning believer to Satan "...for the destruction of the flesh, that his spirit may saved..." 1 Cor 3:10-15 tells us that although our works may all be burned up, and we consequently suffer loss of rewards, we will still be saved. Well, that's my opinion for what it is worth. I hope that I answered your question. I hope also that one can see that eternal security and free will are not contradictory. At least not from this perspective. Peace, Lance -- Lance A. Beckner INTERNET: lab@fibercom.com FiberCom, Inc. UUCP: ...!uunet!fibercom!lab P.O. Box 11966 FAX: (703) 342-5961 Roanoke, VA 24022-1966 PHONE: (703) 342-6700
jamesa@amadeus.wr.tek.com (James Akiyama) (11/24/89)
The doctrine of "predestination" and "eternal security" have always seemed to
go together. I should mention that I come from a "Calvinist" background, but,
over the years, have shifted my views somewhat.
I believe that there is freewill in mankind, but that no man will, of himself,
come into God's grace. If we did we would have, however small, a reason to
boast--that our salvation was partly based on our deeds.
I believe that God calls those who he chooses to save; as seen in Romans
9:18-22:
Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens
whom he wants to harden. One of you will say to me: "Then why does God
still blame us? For who resists his will?" But who are you, O man, to talk
back to God? "Shall what is formed say to him who formed it, 'Why did you
make me like this?'" Does not the potter have the right to make out of the
same lump of clay some pottery for noble purposes and some for common use?
What if God, choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with
great patience the objects of his wrath--prepared for destruction? (New
International Version)
In my opinion, God calls those whom He wants by revealing His glory. I believe
that this is what is being said in Hebrews 6:4-6:
It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who
have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, who
have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming
age, if they fall away, to be brought back to repentance, because to
their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and
subjecting him to public disgrace (New International Version).
Hebrews is saying that God will only call a man once. In the calling, God
reveals Himself to man; even to the point of letting the person "taste the
fruits of the Spirit". I believe, however, that there is a difference between
"tasting" and "being filled". The people sighted in the example in Hebrews is
someone whom God revealed Himself but did not come into the faith. In other
words, God bestowed the gift of grace on the person, but the person refused the
gift. It is for this reason that God cannot re-reveal Himself, as this would
require a second crucifixion of Christ. Note that the person would have shown
signs of a believer (tasting the heavenly gift, shared in the Holy Spirit,
etc.), but never made a commitment to die to himself and live for Christ, as
given in Luke 14:26-33:
"If anyone comes to me and does not hate his father and mother, his
wife and children, his brothers and sisters--yes, even his own life--he
cannot be my disciple. And anyone who does not carry his cross and follow
me cannot be my disciple.
"Suppose one of you wants to build a tower. Will he not first sit down and
estimate the cost to see if he has enough money to complete it? For if he
lays the foundation and is not able to finish it, everyone who sees it will
ridicule him, saying, 'This fellow began to build and was not able to
finish.'
"Or suppose a king is about to go to war against another king. Will he not
first sit down and consider whether he is able with ten thousand men to
oppose the one coming against him with twenty thousand? If he is not able,
he will send a delegation while the other is still a long way off and will
ask for terms of peace.
In the same way, any of you who does not give up everything he has cannot
be my disciple. (New International Version)
Hebrews seems to make clear that he never had salvation, as given later in
Hebrews 6:9:
Even though we speak like this, dear friends, we are confident of better
things in your case--things that accompany salvation (New International
Version).
I suggest reading Hebrews in context for a better view.
Note that there seems to be some interplay of freewill here. The fact that
God has revealed Himself, but the person chooses whether to follow or not.
What I'm not sure about is how much God influences that choice. Romans 9:19
seems to indicate that we can't resist His will:
One of you will say to me: "Then why does God still blame us? For who
resists his will?"
Of course there are numerous other passages which seem to indicate that we
do have some choice.
Now, does the person from Hebrews 6 believe in God? Of course he does.
Who wouldn't after tasting God's gift. But belief does not yield salvation,
as stated in James 2:19:
You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that--and
shudder.
Clearly the demons are not saved.
Salvation comes not through belief, but through faith. Belief is acknowledging
that God exists; faith is to place your trust in God (by dying to yourself and
living for God). At this point, your old self dies; as given in 2 Corinthians
5:17:
Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; the old has gone,
the new has come! (New International Version)
I find it difficult how we could (or why God would) resurrect the old self from
death back into life. In fact, several passages seem to indicate that we can't
fall away; such as Romans 8:35-39:
Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall trouble or hardship
or persecution or famine or nakedness or danger or sword? As it is
written: "For your sake we face death all day long; we are considered as
sheep to be slaughtered." No, in all these things we are more than
conquerors through him who loved us. For I am convinced that neither
death nor life, neither angels nor demons, neither the present nor the
future, nor any powers, neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all
creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in
Christ Jesus our Lord.
Since we are created beings, we are included in the things Paul gives as being
incapable of separating us from God's love.
I should mention that my views here are still in the process of being
formulated. I hope that this will shed some light on others so that they can,
in turn, shed some light to me.
James E. Akiyama
jamesa@amadeus.WR.TEK.COM
UUCP: ....!uunet!tektronix!amadeus.WR.TEK.COM!jamesa
ARPA: @RELAY.CS.NET:jamesa%amadeus.WR.TEK.COMgross@dg-rtp.dg.com (Gene Gross) (11/24/89)
Dave B.: You make the following statement in a recent post: > >To say 'once saved always saved' is like saying 'once married always >married'. I can be secure in my marriage but I can also walk away from >it. I can be secure in Jesus Christ, my perfect partner. I can also walk >away from this relationship. We all have the freedom to choose Him or >to walk away from Him at any time. God is Love and a key facet of that >love is freedom. Let me pose a couple of questions. Suppose that I accept Jesus in the sense of the Greek word for believe (pistis). Then at some point down the line, I walk away. Can I come back to Christ and be forgiven? Some would say yes. Personally, I don't think that it is that easy to fall away and come under the condemnation again. Notwithstanding Hebrews 6:1-6, if a Christian falls away from the Faith, I really have to wonder what his faith was based upon. In my understanding of believing, I find that what we are talking about is much more than a mere mental consent. We are talking about a commitment at a much deeper level than mere mental consent. Such a commitment is not lightly overturned, even by the person holding that commitment. We can do like children do with their parents. We can try to assert our "free-will" outside the mature understanding of our parents. We can ride our bike down that steep hill that the other kids do and that our parents told us not to do. And when we crash and hurt ourselves and rack-up the bike, do our parents disown us and refuse to tend our wounds? If our parents, who are human, won't do this, then I fail to see God doing likewise when we stray from Him to do our own thing. This doesn't negate some discipline for disobedience, but we are not disinherited and our wounds are tended. Furthermore, if salvation is a gift freely given by God, then I doubt that God would take back the gift. Yet, at the same time, Brother, I don't see a cheap grace. Our salvation is not a light matter. It was won at a great cost. To gain salvation also costs us. It costs us our life. We must surrender our life to Christ, freely--as freely as the gift is given. Such a cost is not to be taken lightly, though I fear that it often is. When we go to buy a house, do we not sit down and count the cost involved? So we should also do when coming to the Lord and Saviour of us all. Our commitment to Him must come from the depths of our being, nothing less will suffice. Thus, when we read the words of Jesus in John 3:16, we must understand what is actually being said there. The Greek for believe is pistis (commitment), and begging the pardon of you and the other readers of this group, which leads me to rephrase the passage to read thus: For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever commits himself to Him [the Son] should not perish, but have everlasting life. IMHO, the words of Paul echo very loudly: For I am persuaded that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, nor height, nor depth, nor any other creation, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus, our Lord. (Romans 8:38, 39 KJV) For me, this cinches it. Peace, Gene
davem@watmath.waterloo.edu (Dave Mielke) (11/24/89)
In article <Nov.17.04.11.25.1989.2715@athos.rutgers.edu> davidbu@tekigm2.men.tek.com (David Buxton) writes: >Two parables come to mind when considering 'once saved always saved': > >* The ten virgins waiting for the bride-groom. Ten were apparantly 'saved' > but 5 let their supply of 'oil' run out. In Matthew 25:1-12 Jesus says "Then shall the kingdom of heaven be likened unto ten virgins, which took their lamps, and went forth to meet the bridegroom. And five of them were wise, and five {were} foolish. They that {were} foolish took their lamps, and took no oil with them: But the wise took oil in their vessels with their lamps. While the bridegroom tarried, they all slumbered and slept. And at midnight there was a cry made, Behold, the bridegroom cometh; go ye out to meet him. Then all those virgins arose, and trimmed their lamps. And the foolish said unto the wise, Give us of your oil; for our lamps are gone out. But the wise answered, saying, {Not so}; lest there be not enough for us and you: but go ye rather to them that sell, and buy for yourselves. And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage: and the door was shut. Afterward came also the other virgins, saying, Lord, Lord, open to us. But he answered and said, Verily I say unto you, I know you not.". All the virgins were most definitely not saved. The five wise virgins were saved. Proverbs 9:10 says "The fear of the LORD {is} the beginning of wisdom: and the knowledge of the holy {is} understanding.". The five foolish virgins, however, were not saved. Psalm 14:1 says "The fool hath said in his heart, {There is} no God. They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, {there is} none that doeth good.". Aside from letting God define His own terms, the fact that only five virgins were saved can be seen in a different way too. The only ones who had oil were the five wise virgins. The five foolish virgins did not have oil. If you use a good concordance and research all the references to oil you will see that God uses oil as a figure of the Holy Spirit. This is why, for example, the high priests and the kings were annointed with oil before they began their duties. Note that Jesus, the real king and high priest, was not annointed with oil; He was annointed with the Holy Spirit which descended upon Him in the form of a dove (Mark 1:10). A person who has no oil, i.e. has not been indwelt by the Holy Spirit, is not saved. Romans 8:9 says "But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.". Note also that the bridegroom, who is a figure of Christ, told the five foolish virgins that he did not know them. If he had invited them then he would have known them. This, too, is a definite statement that they were never saved in the first place. >* The seed that fell among several different types of soil. Of all the > seed of the gospel that sprouted not all grew to full maturity. A lot > of it withered and died. Matthew 13:3-8 says "And he spake many things unto them in parables, saying, Behold, a sower went forth to sow; And when he sowed, some {seeds} fell by the way side, and the fowls came and devoured them up: Some fell upon stony places, where they had not much earth: and forthwith they sprung up, because they had no deepness of earth: And when the sun was up, they were scorched; and because they had no root, they withered away. And some fell among thorns; and the thorns sprung up, and choked them: But other fell into good ground, and brought forth fruit, some an hundredfold, some sixtyfold, some thirtyfold.". In Matthew 13:18-23 Jesus explains "Hear ye therefore the parable of the sower. When any one heareth the word of the kingdom, and understandeth {it} not, then cometh the wicked {one}, and catcheth away that which was sown in his heart. This is he which received seed by the way side. But he that received the seed into stony places, the same is he that heareth the word, and anon with joy receiveth it; Yet hath he not root in himself, but dureth for a while: for when tribulation or persecution ariseth because of the word, by and by he is offended. He also that received seed among the thorns is he that heareth the word; and the care of this world, and the deceitfulness of riches, choke the word, and he becometh unfruitful. But he that received seed into the good ground is he that heareth the word, and understandeth {it}; which also beareth fruit, and bringeth forth, some an hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty.". The seeds are the Word of God which is sown all over the whole world. It even falls upon all those who will never become saved. The first three places upon which the seed, i.e. the Word of God, fell are pictures of three different types of unsaved people who hear His Word. Only the fourth place is a picture of a saved person. The seeds falling by the way side are a picture of the Word of God being heard by people whom God has never saved for at least two reasons. First, Jesus tells us that this sort of person does not understand the Word of God. The Bible tells us that this is a characteristic of a person who has not been saved yet. 1 Corinthians 2:14 says "But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know {them}, because they are spiritually discerned.". Second, Jesus tells us that Satan is able to steal away what little understanding this sort of person may have. The Scriptures, on the other hand, tell us that Satan cannot touch a saved person. 1 John 5:18 says "We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not.". The seeds that fell on the stony ground are a picture of the Word of God being heard by people who have not been saved yet because Jesus tells us that there was nowhere for the seeds to take root. If God saved a person then He would certainly provide a place for His Word to take root. Taken at a more spiritual level, in Revelation 22:16 Christ describes Himself as the root, indicating that a person's faith must be rooted in Christ. If the Word of God has nowhere to take root in a given person then the root, i.e. Christ, is not present within his heart. You may also wish to research all the Scriptural references to those having hearts of stone. Such references always refer to those whom God has not saved. One such example is God's description of the salvation process in Ezekiel 36:26 by declaring "A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.". The seeds that fell among thorns are a picture of the Word of God being heard by people who have never been saved because Jesus tells us that this sort of person is more concerned with the cares of this world than he is with those of God. The Scriptures declare this to be, with out a doubt, a characteristic of an unsaved person. 1 John 2:15 says "Love not the world, neither the things {that are} in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him.". Only those seeds which fell upon good ground are a picutre of the Word of God being heard by a person whom God has saved. These people have a heart which God has prepared and in which Christ dwells so that His Word can take root. Note that although they may all bring forth different amounts of fruit, they always bring forth some fruit. There is no such thing as a saved person who does not bring forth any fruit at all. Note also that none of these seeds withered. The concept of losing salvation can in no way be proven by this parable. If anything, it confirms that salvation cannot be lost. >To say 'once saved always saved' is like saying 'once married always >married'. I can be secure in my marriage but I can also walk away from >it. You cannot walk away from your marriage if you want to do it God's way. In Matthew 19:6 Jesus says "Wherefore they are no more twain, but one flesh. What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder.". In the same way, you cannot walk away from salvation if you have been saved God's way. If you haven't been saved God's way then you haven't been saved. Your comparing salvation with marriage is correct, but you drew an inference based on earthly, rather than Scriptural, principles. God declares that an earthly marriage lasts until the death of one of the spouses. Salvation, therefore, lasts until the death of one of the spiritual spouses. Christ, our husband, will never die as He is from everlasting to everlasting. In Revelation 22:13 Jesus declares "I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.". We, His wife, will also never die as we have been given eternal life as of the time that we became saved. 1 John 5:11 says "And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.". We are married to Him forever and, therefore, can never lose our salvation. Dave Mielke, 613-726-0014 856 Grenon Avenue Ottawa, Ontario, Canada K2B 6G3
jhpb@lancia.garage.att.com (11/29/89)
How does what happened to Jimmy Swaggart fit in with "once saved, always
saved"?
[Of course Swaggart's experience doesn't necessarily mean that he is
damned, just that he has fallen for the moment. The idea of
perseverence is not that the elect make no mistakes, are spared all
doubts, etc. It is really a consequence of passages such as Jn
6:39-40 or Jn 10:29, which teach confidence that those who have been
given to Christ will be preserved. --clh]
I don't think I disagree with the moderator's comments. But maybe I
didn't get my point across.
I took "once saved, always saved" to be a reference to the idea that
once one has accepted our Lord as one's "personal Saviour", it's a
straight ticket to Heaven. Some people talk about the "assurance of
salvation".
My point was, how is such an idea to jive with a spectacular fall in
someone who is supposedly saved? Am I to understand that no matter what
wickedness such a person commits, they are going to go straight to
Heaven when they die?
It would appear to make salvation independent of one's actions. One
person robs a bank, and ends in Hell for it, another robs a bank, and
yet goes straight to Heaven.
What exactly is a person damned for, if not as a punishment of their own
actions? How can the same act in two different people lead to such
disparate ends?
Joe Buehler
[As far as I know, no one claims that God chooses someone in a way
that is independent of their choices. (This is my restatement of "no
matter what wickedness such a person commits, they are going to go
straight to Heaven when they die?") The point of predestination,
which lies behind "assurance of salvation", is that God is ultimately
responsible for who chooses which way. If someone is elect, then he
will make choices that lead to his salvation. That's what being elect
means. --clh]davem@watmath.waterloo.edu (Dave Mielke) (11/29/89)
In article <Nov.23.22.28.01.1989.26771@athos.rutgers.edu> jamesa@amadeus.wr.tek.com (James Akiyama) writes: >... In other >words, God bestowed the gift of grace on the person, but the person refused the >gift. The problem with this line of reasoning is that it conflicts with your earlier and correct statement that a person is only saved through the actions of God Himself. If I can remain unsaved by the act of refusing then I necessarily become saved by the act of not refusing, i.e. accepting. At the very least I would be able to arrogantly stand before God in heaven and cponfidently proclaim that at least one of the reasons that I am there is because I did not refuse His offer. >Note that there seems to be some interplay of freewill here. The fact that >God has revealed Himself, but the person chooses whether to follow or not. >What I'm not sure about is how much God influences that choice. Romans 9:19 >seems to indicate that we can't resist His will: > > One of you will say to me: "Then why does God still blame us? For who > resists his will?" > >Of course there are numerous other passages which seem to indicate that we >do have some choice. Since the Bible is the Word of God, who does not lie, we must conclude that we do not fully understand and cannot trust our own thoughts on any given topic until we have reconciled them with every applicable Scripture. We must never rest when we are faced with an apparent contradiction like this. Please permit me to offer the only scenario which I believe is completely supportable by any verse in the entire Bible. I urge you not to jump to the conclusion that it cannot be true just because it seems to be a bit unpleasant on the surface. First, test it by applying it to each verse as you read. If you read the entire Bible and cannot find a single verse that contradicts it then you will conclude, as I have, that it is the truth. If you can find even one verse which contradicts it then please let me know so that I can gain a greater understanding of the truth. I am unwilling to believe something which can be disproven by Scripture. Those Scriptures which declare that God does everything according to His own will and that our wills have no effect on the outcome are quite emphatic and cannot be looked at from any other vantage point. This dictates that they must be interpreted exactly as they appear. An example of such a Scripture is Ephesians 1:11 which says "In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:". I do not believe that anyone who believes that we have free will has found a truly acceptable way to deal with this particular verse. They may not just ignore it, though, as it is the Word of God. Those Scriptures which appear to tell us to do one thing or another in order to insure our salvation do have another vantage point from which they may be read and from which I'm sure they were written. This other vantage point makes them become entirely consistent with the former set. They are giving us a means by which we can determine whether or not we have been saved. An example of such a Scripture is Matthew 10:22 in which Jesus says "And ye shall be hated of all {men} for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved.". This passage appears, at first glance, to be telling us that we have to hang onto our salvation by enduring right up until the end, i.e. our death. Honest self-evaluation tells me that, if this were really the criteria, I would have lost my salvation several times over and would, therefore, have no hope whatsoever of eternal life. Since Romans 8:38-39 tells me that nothing that anyone, including myself in the weakness of my own flesh, will ever do can separate me from the love of God, I know this must be an incorrect interpretation. Also, since all the references to the receiving of eternal life are in the past tense when applied to a saved person, I know that this interpretation must be incorrect. Looking at this Scripture from the other vantage point which I mentioned, though, brings it into precise harmony with all the rest of the Bible. It is really telling me that if I do not continue to endure then I am not saved. I agree with you that the sort of person described in Hebrews 6:4-6 is one to whom God has revealed Himself and who has failed to demonstrate faith. Where I differ from you in its interpretation is that I do not believe that God has even attempted to draw this sort of person. For the benefit of those without easy access to a Bible, I shall quote this passage before going on. Hebrews 6:4-6 says "For {it is} impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put {him} to an open shame.". This passage, being included within a letter whose earthly intention was to explain to the Hebrew people who the Scriptures with which they were most familiar, i.e. the Old Testament, revealed Jesus, has as its earthly subject matter the people of ancient Israel. God, beyond the slightest shadow of any doubt whatsoever, did reveal His greatness to them. He defeated powerful armies for them. He kept them in good physical condition. He kept their clothes from wearing out. He insured that they always had enough to eat. His presence was always visible to them, i.e. the cloud by day and the pillar of fire by night. They could always ask Moses to ask Him a question for them and knew that he would always return with the answer. Yet, with all this and more, Hebrews 3:19 tells us "So we see that they could not enter in because of unbelief.". God's answer to why they did not believe is Ephesians 2:8 which says "For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: {it is} the gift of God:". This passage is telling me that saving faith is a gift from God Himself. Even though God did all sorts of wondrous things for them and even though His greatness was always apparent to them, they did not exercise true faith because He did not give that faith to them. Before we condemn the people of ancient Israel for their lack of faith in such a great and living God, however, we would do well to realize that this passage in Ephesians is clearly making a statement that must be applied to each and every one of us. I must conceed, based on this passage, that my trust in Christ's sacrifice is a gift from God. I must conclude that I would never have begun to trust in Christ's sacrifice if God had not chosen to draw me to Himself. John 6:44 begins "No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him:". I must conclude that I could not go on trusting in Christ's sacrifice if God would not continue to give me the faith to do so. Hebrews 12:2 begins "Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of {our} faith;". I would also like to seek a little more compassion for the people of ancient Israel and a little more honest self-evaluation of ourselves by pointing out that it was not only they to whom God revealed His greatness. He declares that He has revealed His greatness to each and every person who has ever lived and that He will continue to reveal His greatness to everyone who is yet to live. Romans 1:18-20 says "For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness; Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath showed {it} unto them. For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, {even} his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:". Even though He may have been a bit more blatent about it when dealing with the people of ancient Israel, He is telling us that as far as He is concerned the mere fact that we can look around at this marvelous creation is evidence enough of all that He is. Anyone who is aware of the creation in which he is living, and that includes everyone, has absolutely no excuse before God for not having exercised true faith in Him. The fact is, however, that our sinful state prevents us from doing so. The fact that some of us do exercise this sort of faith in Him even when we are confronted by most of the rest of the people of the world who cannot understand it is merely even more evidence that that faith had to come from God Himself. Let us give credit where credit is due, and stop looking for even the smallest hole through which we can let even the edge of the concept of free will creep in. A few paragraphs ago I quoted the first part of John 6:44. I would like to inspect this verse a little further. In its entirity it says "No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.". This verse is telling us more than is immediately obvious about someone whom God draws. The most common fact that most people see in this verse is that it is impossible for someone to become saved unless God takes the first step. This, alone, is enough to prove that there is no such thing as an unsaved person exercising the free will to begin seeking God. Another fact that many people do not often spot, however, is that Jesus is promising that He will raise up these people on the last day. He is saying, in other words, that He will resurrect all those people whom the Father is drawing. This is telling me that a person's eternal life is secure as of the point in time when God begins to draw him, even if he has not actually been formally saved yet. This, alone, is sufficient evidence for the fact that we do not have the free will to refuse salvation once God begins to work on us. I, for one, am exceedingly glad with respect to these truths. I know that if there were even one thing which I could do to mess up my chances of spending an eternity as a member of the body which is the bride of my Creator then I would most certainly eventually do it. I have to contend with my own sinful fleshly desires from moment to moment, and dare not assume that I could ever achieve victory over them on my own. I need Him, and He has promised to always be with me. I claim no personal credit for any good thing in my life because He is responsible for it all. Ephesians 2:10 says "For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.". Since there is nothing I can do to lose my salvation, and since God has promised to never revoke it, I confidently look forward to spending eternity filled with and encompassed by the infinitely great magnitude of the completely selfless love of my spiritual husband. As His spiritually betroathed bride, I joyfully serve Him even now, before our marriage is consumated. Would that you all could see this beauty! Dave Mielke, 613-726-0014 856 Grenon Avenue Ottawa, Ontario, Canada K2B 6G3
dtate@unix.cis.pitt.edu (David M Tate) (11/30/89)
In article <Nov.28.23.46.49.1989.25097@athos.rutgers.edu> jhpb@lancia.garage.att.com writes: > >It would appear to make salvation independent of one's actions. One >person robs a bank, and ends in Hell for it, another robs a bank, and >yet goes straight to Heaven. > >What exactly is a person damned for, if not as a punishment of their own >actions? How can the same act in two different people lead to such >disparate ends? > Your first mistake is in thinking that anyone ends up in Hell for robbing a bank. One is damned for being sinful; we're all sinful, bank or no. The idea of damnation as "punishment for actions" is a pernicious misconception that is a blight on the Church. God is not a thin-lipped disciplinarian, handing out eternal spankings to naughty mortals. The difference between your two robbers is that one of them is repentant. If this is truly the case, he will be saved. The unrepentent bank robber faces the same fate as the unrepentant gossip, the unrepentant liar, and even the unrepentant pretty-good-guy and the unrepentant everyone-thinks-he's-a-saint. Human beings are sinful. Period. By the Grace of God through Jesus Christ, we have the unbelievable opportunity to commune forever with God anyway, by having our sins erased at the Cross. All of them. Now, and later. Because there will be more of them, you can bet on it. And no one of them is any more offensive in the eyes of God than any other. (See previous posting on this). -- David M. Tate | DISCLAIMER: dtate@unix.cis.pitt.edu | "Hey, that's *my* dis!" _____________________________________________________________________________ Statistics is the science of inferring the obvious and the false.
jhpb@lancia.garage.att.com (12/04/89)
>The difference between your two robbers is that one of them is repentant. If >this is truly the case, he will be saved. The unrepentent bank robber faces >the same fate as the unrepentant gossip, the unrepentant liar, and even the >unrepentant pretty-good-guy and the unrepentant everyone-thinks-he's-a-saint. I agree. You don't hold the model of salvation that my comments were addressed to; you say "he will be saved". I was addressing some thoughts to the idea that someone can be "saved" right here and now, permanently. The whole point was, if someone is supposed to be "saved", and do something spectacularly evil, how am I to square it? If a "saved" person is not distinguishable from an "unsaved" by their works, what *are* they distinguished by? >Human beings are sinful. Period. By the Grace of God through Jesus Christ, >we have the unbelievable opportunity to commune forever with God anyway, by >having our sins erased at the Cross. All of them. Now, and later. Because >there will be more of them, you can bet on it. And no one of them is any more >offensive in the eyes of God than any other. (See previous posting on this). Logically, there's no particular reason to punish one crime with death and another with a fine, if they're morally all equivalent. Why not make murder legally equivalent to jaywalking? After all, you're saying that they're the same in the eyes of God. The disproof from Scripture is simple enough: He who delivered Me up to you has the greater sin.
davem@watmath.waterloo.edu (Dave Mielke) (12/04/89)
In article <Nov.28.23.46.49.1989.25097@athos.rutgers.edu> jhpb@lancia.garage.att.com writes: >I took "once saved, always saved" to be a reference to the idea that >once one has accepted our Lord as one's "personal Saviour", it's a >straight ticket to Heaven. It is not that we accept Christ, as many people suppose, but rather that He accepts us. 1 John 4:19 says "We love him, because he first loved us.". Once He has accepted a particular person, sinful as he is, his salvation is secure. Ephesians 1:13 tells us that it is sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise. If a person is accepted by Christ then He will begin to draw him and eventually formally save him. From an earthly perspective this shows up as that person placing his complete trust in Christ not only for his eternal destiny (in His role as Saviour) but also for the principles by which his life must be governed (in His role as Lord). True salvation is when a person submits his life to Christ, but this is really the result of God having replaced his heart of stone with a new heart of flesh. In Ezekiel 36:26 God describes the salvation process by declaring "A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.". Note that a saved person's heart had to be entirely replaced and not just repaired. Less figuratively and more mechanically, true salvation is when God replaces a person's sinful soul with a new soul which no longer can tolerate sin in any form. Even though that person is left (for the time being) with a body that lusts after sin, his soul wars against these desires and gains more and more control over the body so that less and less sin is apparent in the life of that person as time progresses. The apostle Paul describes this struggle between the soul and body of a saved person in Romans 7:22-24 by saying "For I delight in the law of God after the inward man: But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?". A person should reevaluate his perceived salvation if he does not experience this inner conflict. Anyone can say that he has accepted Christ as his Lord and Saviour, but such a statement is of absolutely no effect if it is not accompanied with the cleansing action of the Holy Spirit within him. This is an action which only God can initiate. The Scriptures tell us that we can know a truly saved person by his fruits. A person who is truly saved truly recognizes Christ as the Lord of his life. A person who is not truly saved does not. This is usually evidenced by his conscious, voluntary, continued involvement in some particular sin. Perhaps, even though he knows that God has no tolerance for sexual relations outside marriage, he continues to share accomodations with someone to whom he is attracted. Perhaps, even though he knows that God declares homosexual activity to be an abomination to Him, he continues to involve himself in that particular life style. Perhaps, even though he knows that smoking is nothing less than slow, self-murder, he does not make a sincere effort to quit. Perhaps, even though he knows that only death can terminate a marriage, he divorces his spouse for some reason that he can't believe God would refuse even though there is absolutely no Scriptural evidence to support his position. In all such cases a person is really declaring that that sin is more important to him than obedience to the one whom he has said is Lord of his life. 1 John 2:3-5 says "And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments. He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.". >It would appear to make salvation independent of one's actions. One >person robs a bank, and ends in Hell for it, another robs a bank, and >yet goes straight to Heaven. Let's be careful not to judge others too severely. We are all equally guilty of sin. It is wrong for us to start deciding which sin is worse than which other sin. If we really want to know what God considers the most offensive sin to be then we had best ask Him. Jesus gives us the answer in Mark 12:29-30 which says "And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments {is}, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord: And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this {is} the first commandment.". If you do not love God with ALL your heart and with ALL your soul and with ALL your mind and with ALL your strength then you are committing a more serious sin than the guy who robbed the bank. No one of us comes even remotely close to keeping this particular commandment, the most important one of all, perfectly. Each of us is, therefore, just as guilty as the next person before God. Philippians 2:3 commands each of us "{Let} nothing {be done} through strife or vainglory; but in lowliness of mind let each esteem other better than themselves.". Let each of us, therefore, direct all of his efforts toward the elimination of sin from his own life. Romans 14:4 says "Who art thou that judgest another man's servant? to his own master he standeth or falleth. Yea, he shall be holden up: for God is able to make him stand.". If we notice a sin in someone else's life, let us not forget to ask God to forgive him for it, but let us also use that observation as the stimulous to search our own lives for worse sins than that one. Instead of judging the physical sins of others, let us be thankful that God, in the person of Jesus, took upon Himself the equivalent of the punishment of eternal damnation that we so rightly deserve for our spiritual sins. Dave Mielke, 613-726-0014 856 Grenon Avenue Ottawa, Ontario, Canada K2B 6G3
crf%basil@princeton.edu (Charles Ferenbaugh) (12/06/89)
In article <Nov.28.23.50.48.1989.25127@athos.rutgers.edu> bnr-fos!bmers58!davem@watmath.waterloo.edu (Dave Mielke) writes a Biblical defense of
predestination which is far too long to repeat here.
After reading that article, I still have difficulty reconciling two
things with it: one apologetic, one scriptural.
First: many non-Christians will say something like this: if God created
some people who would be saved and thus given eternal life, and He also
created other people who would not be saved and thus receive eternal
punishment, why didn't He just create the saved people only? It seems
that a loving God COULD NOT create beings who were doomed from the
start to damnation. My answer to this question has always involved
some element of freewill; with that possibility removed, I can't see
what else would still be consistent with what we know of God's nature.
Second: I quote 2 Peter 3:9 (RSV), "The Lord is not slow about his
promise as some count slowness, but is forbearing toward you, not
wishing that any should perish, but that all should reach repentance."
Admittedly there is some question here as to whom the "all" refers to.
Nevertheless, if it were ONLY God's wish that were necessary to bring
about repentance, surely He would not need to be forbearing toward
us? This seems to imply that some element of our own cooperation
is necessary for the repentance to come about...
Notice that I've used words like "seems" a lot in the above paragraphs.
This is because I'm still in the process of trying to develop and
express my own understanding of what the Bible teaches on this question.
Right now I would say that the Scriptural teachings on predestination
are in a collective sense (i.e., God knew that some would reject His
offer of salvation, others would accept, and this is what He planned
for those who would accept). But this is only a quick summary of a
partially developed understanding, and I would appreciate any helpful
comments.
- Charles Ferenbaughjamesa@amadeus.wr.tek.com (James Akiyama) (12/11/89)
Dave Mielke writes: > The problem with this line of reasoning is that it conflicts with your > earlier and correct statement that a person is only saved through the > actions of God Himself. If I can remain unsaved by the act of refusing > then I necessarily become saved by the act of not refusing, i.e. > accepting. At the very least I would be able to arrogantly stand before > God in heaven and cponfidently proclaim that at least one of the > reasons that I am there is because I did not refuse His offer. Not necessarily. Part of this depends on how God reveals His will. How enticing is His offer? He could appear before some in a manner that He foreknows will result in salvation and yet leave the actual acceptance to man. I realize that this is really playing with what "freewill" is and what "predestination" is, but I believe that both may, in fact, be true. God may reveal Himself to some and yet leave the door to destruction still open, knowing that the person's own desire will lead him to a road of destruction. To others, God may reveal Himself in such fullness that He foreknows the person will turn. Let me state two examples. First, in Exodus Moses sometimes lists God as hardening the heart of Pharaoh, while at other times Moses gives Pharaoh as hardening his own heart. In fact, the two seem to be the same; as stated in Exodus 9:34-10:1: Exodus 9:34-10:1 When Pharaoh saw that the rain and hail and thunder had stopped, he sinned again: He and his officials hardened their hearts. So Pharaoh's heart was hard and he would not let the Israelites go, just as the Lord had said through Moses. Then the Lord said to Moses, "Go to Pharaoh, for I have hardened his heart and the hearts of his officials so that I may perform these miraculous signs of mine among them (NIV). Verse 9:34 seems to indicate Pharaoh hardened his own heart, while 10:1 seems to indicate that God hardened Pharaoh's heart. I believe that God "harden" the heart of Pharoah by simply removing some of His grace; the natural course of man was then downward. Yet the choice was still Pharaoh's; he could have chosen to remain enlighten but did not. God is still ultimately in control; He knows exactly how much support each of us need to remain obedient. The second example of freewill is Joshua 24:15, which states: But if serving the Lord seems undesirable to you, then choose for yourselves this day whom you will serve, whether the gods your forefathers served beyond the River, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land you are living. But as for me and my household, we will serve the Lord." (NIV) Again, the choice seems to be left to the people. Of course, this must be contrasted against verses which seem to indicate predestination, which you have broughten up in the past. My "favorite" (which seems to answer a lot of questions) is Paul's example of the potter and clay in Romans 9:13-25: Just as it is written: "Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated." What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Not at all! For he says to Moses, "I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion." It does not, therefore, depend on man's desire or effort, but on God's mercy. For the Scripture says to Pharaoh: "I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth." Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden. One of you will say to me: "Then why does God still blame us? For who resists his will?" But who are you, O man, to talk back to God? "Shall what is formed say to him who formed it, 'Why did you make me like this?'" Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for noble purposes and some for common use? What if God, choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath--prepared for destruction? What if he did this to make the riches of his glory known to the objects of his mercy, whom he prepared in advance for glory--even us, whom he also called, not only from the Jews but also from the Gentiles? As he says in Hosea: "I will call them 'my people' who are not my people; and I will call her 'my loved one' who is not my loved one," (NIV). Here Paul indicates that God takes mercy on those He wants and hardens those He wants. We cannot resist His will. We are His creation for His glory; not the other way around. I believe, as stated above, that "predestination" and "freewill" are not mutually exclusive. God may give us a freewill, but then elect those whom He predestined by presenting an enticing offer He foreknows you will not refuse. He may present His offer to others as well (as I previously gave from a quote in Hebrews 6:4-6). But, again, He knows that these offers will be refused. To others, He may never explicitly reveal Himself, although the Bible makes clear that revelation is found in all of creation. Paul (above) seems to indicate that these "unsaved people" are for us, the believers, to show us the riches of His glory. But this is somewhat unclear since Paul presents this as a question that is he never answers (as an interesting sidelight, note that this is the only question Paul presents here that is never answered; I have often pondered the significance of this). Again, this is really a theological debate which may be pointless. I believe that there are mysteries which God has yet to reveal; this may well be one of them. If it is, then I must rest in faith (trusting in those things which are yet unseen). Psalms 131:1 seems to clarify this point: My heart is not proud, O Lord, my eyes are not haughty; I do not concern myself with great matters or things too wonderful for me. Again, my purpose here is not to argue, but hopefully to enlighten other that they may enlighten me. At the same time I realize that certains things are not known; still, curiosity lurks on. -- James E. Akiyama jamesa@amadeus.WR.TEK.COM UUCP: ....!uunet!tektronix!amadeus.WR.TEK.COM!jamesa ARPA: @RELAY.CS.NET:jamesa%amadeus.WR.TEK.COM [I think your understanding is what at least some people mean by predestination. Generally predestination was interpreted as being consistent with human responsbility for their decisions. --clh]
mike@unmvax.cs.unm.edu (Michael I. Bushnell) (12/11/89)
In article <Dec.3.12.48.22.1989.23182@athos.rutgers.edu> jhpb@lancia.garage.att.com writes: >The whole point was, if someone is supposed to be "saved", and do >something spectacularly evil, how am I to square it? If a "saved" >person is not distinguishable from an "unsaved" by their works, what >*are* they distinguished by? Perhaps God doesn't *want* us to distinguish absolutely. A key idea in the Scots Confession and the Westminster Confession is that, ultimately, while we can guess, we don't know who the elect are. (If you are uncomfortable with the term elect, substitute saved.) Only God knows who he has met. We don't, ultimately, know about even ourselves. You are really asking "How am I to judge a persons actions so as to decide whether they are saved?" And to that, Jesus replies "Judge not, lest ye be judged." -- Michael I. Bushnell \ This above all; to thine own self be true LIBERTE, EGALITE, FRATERNITE \ And it must follow, as the night the day, mike@unmvax.cs.unm.edu /\ Thou canst not be false to any man. Telephone: +1 505 292 0001 / \ Farewell: my blessing season this in thee!
davem@watmath.waterloo.edu (Dave Mielke) (12/11/89)
In article <Dec.6.00.54.26.1989.11402@athos.rutgers.edu> crf%basil@princeton.edu (Charles Ferenbaugh) writes: >First: many non-Christians will say something like this: if God created >some people who would be saved and thus given eternal life, and He also >created other people who would not be saved and thus receive eternal >punishment, why didn't He just create the saved people only? It seems >that a loving God COULD NOT create beings who were doomed from the >start to damnation. This is indeed q euestion which many unsaved people ask. It is even asked by many saved people. I used to ask similar questions myself. No one will ever come up with an acceptable answer to it, however, because, like many questions which we sin infested people ask, it is extremely ill-posed. The problem with questions like this one is that they are trying to fault God. we have a tendancy to read what God has told us and then assess it in terms of our own outlook on life. We do this because we believe ourselves to be fully rational at all times and more open-minded and omniscient than others including even God Himself. We must constantly force ourselves to remember that our flesh, thoughts, emotions, etc. have been severely infected by sin. As such, we should be constantly forcing ourselves to remember that we ought to humbly admit that there are some things which we just cannot understand because we cannot see them from God's perspective. Our sole means of seeking truth should be the sincere and prayerful study of God's Word. When we encounter something which requires analysis (which is almost always as we dare never assume that something in the Scriptures does not require analysis) then we should keep that point in mind and constantly reanalyze it with other Scriptures as we read them until we finally arrive at a conclusion that is consistent with all of them. This way we give ourselves the oportunity to see things from His perspective and avoid the ever present temptation to mar our understanding of not only God but also His motives by measuring them by our sinful frames of reference. Rather than putting our perfect God on trial, we should put our imperfect selves on trial. Rather than asking God why He would create people whom He does not intend to save, we should be asking ourselves why we, whom God has created, do not want to be saved. This question is very Scriptural, yet most people avoid it as its answer is too painful. I would suggest both careful and repeated reading of passages like Psalm 14:2-3, Psalm 53:2-3, and Romans 3:10-18, in which God emphatically and unambiguously declares that absolutely no one single person, on his own, wants his Creator to be the Lord of his life. For example, Psalm 14:2-3 says "The LORD looked down from heaven upon the children of men, to see if there were any that did understand, {and} seek God. They are all gone aside, they are {all} together become filthy: {there is} none that doeth good, no, not one.". The more I read the Scriptures the more I begin to realize three critical things. The first is that God is doing things with eternity in view, i.e. the way that things are today is merely the means by which He is preparing for the eternity within which He wishes us, as His wife, to be the recipients of the overflowing of His exceedingly abundantly selfless and all-encompassing divine love. The second is that He is giving us concrete, tangible evidence that every single thing He says is true by doing things in such a way that there can be no possible doubt that each and every one of His assessments is absolutely correct, that each and every one of His promises is kept, and that He Himself has faultlessly and unhypocritically adheared to each and every requirement of His own law. The third is that He is giving us concrete, tangible evidence of the perfection of all of His attributes, e.g. love, patience, mercy, honesty, justness, righteousness, omnipresence, omniscience, wisdom, by having created a forum in which He can put all of them on full display. The last two turn out to be a necessary outcome of the first because God does not want to spend the rest of eternity proving that He is one who can be implicitly and completely trusted. Another thing that is becoming more and more clear to me is that He, with eternity in view, is only concerned that all of these things be fully understood by those with whom He intends to share eternity when they get there. It is not essential that we understand everything right now. For the time being we would do well to just learn to trust that He always does exactly what is best whether or not we understand it. This necessarily includes even those things which appear to us for the moment to be unpleasant like the fact that He clearly knows exactly whom He does not intend to save and who, therefore, will end up in hell. Let us never forget that God is not condemning anyone just because He feels like being mean. We all deserve to suffer eternal damnation because we are such abominable sinners. The fact that He chooses to save any one of us is an evidence of His grace and never to be interpreted as an indication that He ought to be under any obligation whatsoever to save anyone else. Those who remain unsaved because God has not chosen to save them have no one to blame but themselves. Those who have been saved have no one to thank but God. I, personally, would never dare claim that I made any contribution whatsoever, including the claim that I remain saved because of choices that I am making within my sin infested mind. Let us never forget that God is not condemning those whom He does not intend to save to a worse punishment than that which He took upon Himself so that, without compromising His perfect Justice, He would be able to save us from it. He, in fact, took upon Himself a far, far worse punishment than any unsaved person will ever suffer because He took upon Himself all the sins of millions of people and compressed the infinite durations of all of those punishments into only three days. This, in fact, is how He demonstrates the truly infinite nature of His love. The fact that He has chosen to limit salvation to only some subset of the entire human race, which is finite in size, is of little consequence. If He had only chosen to save one person, He would still have gone infinitely beyond the call of duty. He is the one who voluntarily inflicted His own worst punishment upon Himself and He, therefore, is the only one who has the right to decide whom He suffered for. He owes us nothing and we owe Him everything. We would do well to ask ourselves why He bothered saving anyone at all. Some how, from an eternal and perfect perspective, it must all be worth it to Him. Hebrews 12:2 says "Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of {our} faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.". While it is true that we ought to just always implicitly believe everything He says and trust everything He does, God is using this period of time to tangibly demonstrate His integrity to us. Anyone who doubts that this proof is necessary need only sincerely look in the mirror for a while. How many times to we, who have been saved and ought to know better, fail to trust God just because His perfect sense of timing in order to achieve the best possible long term solution exceeds our willingness to remain patient? How many times do we fail to believe that God's approach to the resolution of a problem is best just because it causes us more short term grief than we wish to bear? Anyone who is truly honest with himself will admit that in the majority of cases he does not fully trust in either the presence or the ways of the one whom he claims is the Lord of his life. Now back to the question you raised. I would not like to leave it unanswered as you have raised what really is a very important point. The Scriptures do, after all, command us to have ready answers for the questions which others ask us. The question was how do we answer those who ask us why a loving God would create those whom He does not intend to save and, therefore, knows will end up in hell. With all the fore-going in mind, I would like to present to you what I believe to be at least part of the answer. I would suggest that at least one of the reasons that God has not decided to save everyone is that He wishes to tangibly demonstrate that His declaration that we will not choose to do everything His way on our own is correct. If He were to save everyone then He would be, as it were, throwing away the tangible evidence that we aparently need. He would also be failing to demonstrate a crucial element of true justice and discipline which every good parent, school teacher, and judge knows, i.e. the preannounced punishment for a deliberate act of disobedience must be dispensed. >Second: I quote 2 Peter 3:9 (RSV), "The Lord is not slow about his >promise as some count slowness, but is forbearing toward you, not >wishing that any should perish, but that all should reach repentance." >Admittedly there is some question here as to whom the "all" refers to. >Nevertheless, if it were ONLY God's wish that were necessary to bring >about repentance, surely He would not need to be forbearing toward >us? This seems to imply that some element of our own cooperation >is necessary for the repentance to come about... While that would be one way of interpreting this passage, it does not mesh with the rest of the Bible. Please permit me to give an alternate interpretation which does. It is obvious that the words "any" and "all" do not refer to the entire human race. This is true not only because lots and lots of people perish without ever becoming repentant but also because the Scriptures clearly declare that hell will be extremely heavily populated. The terms "any" and "all" can only refer to those whom God has elected to salvation. This does, as you so clearly put it, cause us to wonder why God has to be so patient. The answer turns out to be rather simple. Before God even began to physically create this universe He made His selection hregarding whom He intended to save. This list of names is what the Scriptures refer to as the Lamb's book of life from the foundation of the world. These people would eventually be born throughout the thousands of years that would follow. God also hates sin. HIs hatred of sin is so great that He is constantly confronted with a desire to just destroy this whole place now, i.e. without waiting for its predetermined end. If He were to do this, however, all those whom He had previously elected to salvation would not become born. God is tangibly demonstrating His perfect patience by putting up with the intolerable abomination that sin is to Him until the last person whom He plans to save is born and subsequently saved before He starts the final phase of this era which will culminate in judgement day. It is, therefore, not our cooperation but His own commitments which He refuses to break which cause Him to remain so unbelievably patient. Dave Mielke, 613-726-0014 856 Grenon Avenue Ottawa, Ontario, Canada K2B 6G3
davem@watmath.waterloo.edu (Dave Mielke) (12/15/89)
In article <Dec.11.03.30.05.1989.22890@athos.rutgers.edu> jamesa@amadeus.wr.tek.com (James Akiyama) writes: >I believe, as stated above, that "predestination" and "freewill" are not >mutually exclusive. God may give us a freewill, but then elect those whom >He predestined by presenting an enticing offer He foreknows you will not refuse. >He may present His offer to others as well (as I previously gave from a quote >in Hebrews 6:4-6). But, again, He knows that these offers will be refused. >To others, He may never explicitly reveal Himself, although the Bible makes >clear that revelation is found in all of creation. The scenario you describe is, as I see it, almost correct. There is but one missing element which, when taken into consideration, makes everything fall neatly into place. Unless one is aware of this missing element, it is easy to understand how he would consider free will to be a necessary factor. The missing element is, that as part of becoming saved, God gives a person an entirely new, sinless soul. Being sinless, this new soul does love God with all its heart, all its mind, and all its strength. It is, therefore, incapable of rejecting God. This fact is what permits me to confidently declare that a saved person does not have the free will to reject God. This fact also reveals the mechanical description of why we can never lose our salvation. Before we were saved we had completely sinful souls. Ephesians 2:1-3 tells us that we were dead in our sins, and were exactly like those who will never become saved. I believe your interpretation of God's hardening of Pharaoh's heart is not only correct but also a marvelous illustration of this truth. When God removes His hand of restraint then man automatically falls deeper and deeper into sin, and there is no apparent bottom to this fall which is what will make hell so unbearable. Unsaved man can only do what little good he does if he is sustained by God's restraining of his natural tendancy to do nothing but sin. This is why I confidently declare that an unsaved man does not have the free will to accept God. A person who is dead does not have the free will to choose to live. I think it is worth noting that, while terms related to predestination do appear in the Bible numerous times, the term free will never does. Free will is a concept that has been introduced by man in an attempt to explain a spiritual truth which they either could not see or did not want to acknowledge (before anyone gets to angry, be it known that I believe that most people fall into the "could not see" category). It is, however, a position which denies that salvation is entirely the work of God and in absolutely no way whatsoever the work of man. In a very abstract sense one might say that we are making choices, but in a much more real sense we are following the only alternative that is available to us. An unsaved person can do nothing but sin were it not for God's restraint; his sinful soul and his sinful flesh are in complete harmony with one another. while the flesh of a saved person still, for the time being, lusts after sin, his brand new soul is no longer capable of sin. God only gives new, sinless souls to those whom He saves. NOte that He does not do this lightly. It is for those people's sins that He took upon Himself the penalty of eternal damnation that they so rightly deserved. He had to satisfy His own judicial requirements before He could exercise His ability to rescue them. Let me know if you would like me to post a proof of the fact that salvation involves the replacing of ones sinful soul with a sinless one and I shall do so. I thought I'd limit myself to giving you a brief response in case you really did not want to continue this discussion. If you want to research this issue on your own then I suggest that you begin by trying to determine what the phrase "first resurrection" (Revelation 20:5-6) refers to and when the implied second resurrection of a saved person is, analyzing the past tense references to the raising of a person who has become saved, trying to determine exactly what is meant by being born again, and trying to resolve the apparently incorrect declaration that one who is born of God cannot sin. This latter statement can be found in 1 John 3:9 which says "Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.". A small hint on the latter two points is that our soul becomes born again when we are saved while our flesh is not born again until the last day when we receive our new, spiritual bodies. It is our soul, therefore, that not only does not but also cannot sin right now, even though our flesh, as I'm sure you well know, still wants to. It is this conflict between our sinless soul and sinful flesh that creates the inner war that we experience as our flesh continually tries to do things which our soul now hates. Dave Mielke, 613-726-0014 856 Grenon Avenue Ottawa, Ontario, Canada K2B 6G3
MATH1H3@uhvax1.uh.edu (David H. Wagner) (12/15/89)
I am new to this particular thread, but I want to put in my own two bits. First, if you replaced 'saved' with 'elected', then I would have no argument (I think) with David Mielke. If God has elected someone to salvation then he is certainly saved. However we have no way of knowing for certain whether someone is in fact elected. The person who perseveres in Christian faith until death is certainly saved, however, because he has God's promise on that. One pastor has told me that when the Bible teaches election it is always addressed to believers under persecution, as a comfort to them. So if you are holding on to your faith in the face of persecution, that is a time to think about your election. Jesus did say very clearly that one can have faith and lose it. In the parable of the sower he said, concerning the seed falling on the rock, "They believe for a while, but in time of testing they fall away." (Luke 8:13) David H. Wagner My opinions and beliefs are completely separated from my employer's lack thereof.
kutz@cis.ohio-state.edu (Kenneth J. Kutz) (12/17/89)
In article <Dec.15.02.00.43.1989.17630@athos.rutgers.edu>, MATH1H3@uhvax1.uh.edu (David H. Wagner) writes: > Jesus did say very clearly that one can have faith and lose it. In > the parable of the sower he said, concerning the seed falling on the rock, > "They believe for a while, but in time of testing they fall away." (Luke 8:13) James tells us in James 1:12 that the man who stands up under a trial and has stood the test will receive the crown of life that God has promised to those who love him. This I believe is the first of a series of "tests of living faith" which James presents to his readers. James 2:14 describes a faith that does not save. I believe what distinguishes the faith of Luke 8:13 and James 2:14 from the faith that Paul talks about in Ephesians is that the latter is clearly stated as being the gift of God. The former faith is not. Instead it is the same kind of faith that the demons have (James 2:19). This faith is not from God, but from fallen creation. There's a difference. One lasts, the other is very fickle. -- Kenneth J. Kutz Internet kutz@andy.bgsu.edu Systems Programmer BITNET KUTZ@BGSUOPIE University Computer Services UUCP ...!osu-cis!bgsuvax!kutz Bowling Green State Univ. US Mail 238 Math Science, BG OH 43403
davem@watmath.waterloo.edu (Dave Mielke) (12/17/89)
In article <Dec.15.02.00.43.1989.17630@athos.rutgers.edu> MATH1H3@uhvax1.uh.edu (David H. Wagner) writes: > Jesus did say very clearly that one can have faith and lose it. In >the parable of the sower he said, concerning the seed falling on the rock, >"They believe for a while, but in time of testing they fall away." (Luke 8:13) Jesus is not discussing someone who ever had saving faith here. He is discussing someone to whom God has not given the gift of true faith, but rather one who is, on his own, trying out the Christian faith much as all sorts of people try out all sorts of other faiths. Anyone who is trying to be saved by trying to build his own faith with his own efforts, rather than asking God to give him more and more faith, will eventually find that it is just too hard and give up. Dave Mielke, 613-726-0014 856 Grenon Avenue Ottawa, Ontario, Canada K2B 6G3
MATH1H3@uhvax1.uh.edu (David H. Wagner) (12/19/89)
[Dave Wagner claimed that one can have faith and lose it, citing "They believe for a while, but in time of testing they fall away." (Luke 8:13) Dave Mielke responded > Jesus is not discussing someone who ever had saving faith here. He is > discussing someone to whom God has not given the gift of true faith, > but rather one who is, on his own, trying out the Christian faith much > as all sorts of people try out all sorts of other faiths. Anyone who is > trying to be saved by trying to build his own faith with his own > efforts, rather than asking God to give him more and more faith, will > eventually find that it is just too hard and give up. --clh] Is that how Jesus explains it? He said: "Those on the rock are the ones who receive the word with joy when they hear it, But they have no root. They believe for a while..." Jesus is describing shallow faith. If you die with any Christian faith, even shallow faith, you are saved. But shallow faith is easily lost. An how do we obtain faith? Does the unbeliever ask for it? "For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith--and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God--not by works, so that no one can boast." Ephesians 2:8. How does God give faith? "Faith comes from hearing the message, and the message is heard through the word of Christ." Just as Jesus explained in the parable. Faith is strengthened, not so much by asking God for more, although I have nothing against that, but by continual feeding on God's Word. "Like newborn babies, crave pure spititual milk, so that by it you may grow up in your salvation, now that you have tasted that the Lord is good." (1 Peter 2:2). "But as for you, continue in what you have learned and have become convinced of, because you know those from whom you learned it, and how from infancy you have known the holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus. All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, so that the man of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work." (2 Tim 3:15-17). David Wagner My opinions and beliefs are completely separated from my employer's.
cash@uunet.uu.net (Peter Cash) (12/21/89)
>Dave Mielke writes: >> The problem with this line of reasoning is that it conflicts with your >> earlier and correct statement that a person is only saved through the >> actions of God Himself. If I can remain unsaved by the act of refusing >> then I necessarily become saved by the act of not refusing, i.e. >> accepting. At the very least I would be able to arrogantly stand before >> God in heaven and confidently proclaim that at least one of the >> reasons that I am there is because I did not refuse His offer. Sure, we are saved through God's grace, and that grace is entirely undeserved. But since when is accepting charity "arrogance"? If I stand before God in heaven and say, "I took you up on your offer," then I'm being arrogant? I'm a beggar, nothing more. Yes, I stuck out my hand to receive the gift--but that's surely not cause for arrogance or pride. As to why God made me this offer, I don't know. I do think that it's extended to everyone, and that some people take what's offered, and some do not. Some go in to the feast, and some remain outside. I guess I like C.S. Lewis' view, as put forth in _The Great Divorce_ best: anyone can take the bus to heaven, but many just don't like it there. The light is so bright, the grass so prickly...and they don't much care for Him who dwells there. Why are some men like that? I don't know. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ | Die Welt ist alles, was Zerfall ist. | Peter Cash | (apologies to Ludwig Wittgenstein) | cash@convex ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~