goodrum@unccvax.UUCP (Cloyd Goodrum) (12/19/89)
OFM sez: > [The idea that sex is evil was certainly present in some Gnostic > groups. However as applied to mainstream Christianity it seems to be > primarily an accusation that various groups make about others. --clh] I think that it is true that Christianity today does not view sex as inherently evil. But didn't Augustine believe that while sex in itself was not evil, the physical pleasure derived from it is? This comes awful close to saying that sex is evil. Cloyd Goodrum III -- Cloyd Goodrum III UNCC Computer Science Department Charlotte, N.C. unccvax!goodrum@mcnc.org [At least in the City of God, Augustine says that it isn't sex, but lust that is evil. Of the sinless state before the Fall he says "No sadness of any kind was there, nor any foolish joy; true gladness ceaselessly flowed from the presence of God, who was loved 'out of a pure heart, and a good conscience, and faith unfeigned.' The honest love of husband and wife made a sure harmony between them. Body and spirit worked harmoniously together..." Had they not sinned, they would still have created offspring by sexual intercourse. However offspring would hve been begotten "without the disease of lust", "at the command of the will; and without the seductive stimulus of passion, with calmness of mind and with no corrupting the integrity of the body ... since no wild heat of passion would arouse those parts of the body, but a spontaneous power, according to the need, would be present." (City of God, Chap 14, par 26.) I think he doesn't object to pleasure, but to its uncontrolled nature. It may not have been clear from the quotation, but the fact that erection is not under the control of the will seems to him to indicate that we are not in control during intercourse, but are carried away by passion. --clh]
jrossi@jato.jpl.nasa.gov (The Electric Sol) (12/21/89)
[This is a continuation of the discussion about whether Christians consider sex evil. In response to a question, I summarized Augustine's views: >I think he doesn't object >to pleasure, but to its uncontrolled nature. It may not have been >clear from the quotation, but the fact that erection is not under the >control of the will seems to him to indicate that we are not in >control during intercourse, but are carried away by passion. --clh] Does this also apply to animals? [Dave Mielke commented >The desire must ceom from God and not from us. If it comes from us then >we would, as you have correctly and humbly observed, have cause to >boast. The Scriptures declare that God has done things in a manner >which does not permit us to boast. Ephesians 2:8-9 says "For by grace ] Has He taken away your free will? Do you want to suggest that you could choose *Not* to be a Christian. One of the chosen, stepping down, as it were. Are you a robot, predestined to act out the will of God? But I thought that God didn't want robots. With this, free will is neither. Its paid for by Christ on the cross, ( and what a price! ) and its not your will, but God's. Which is it, Dave? Do you turn to Christ out of free will ( reason to boast ), or does He force you? Can the chosen exercise free will? >have, i.e. the desire which we are discussing, is a gift from God. A >gift is freely given, and is neither bought nor earned. But can it be declined? Now I'm not talking the reprobate who can never understand acting out his own rebellion, but one of the actual elect exercising their free will and choosing something other than the Will of God. Are you, in fact prisoners of Grace, robots of love, puppets with strings reaching into Heaven. Now as the elect, you have the gifts of understanding through the hOly sPirIt, and *know* not only how, but why you are saved, even if only to a human, finite degree. Now since it is possible for you to understand why you were saved, is just as possible for someone to understand why they aren't saved? Can I know for a fact that I am damned, not chosen, etc. Wouldn't my *knowledge* per se, mean I am somehow understanding the scripture, or lending some credence to it. Now is it also possible to want to be saved, out of the longing of your own heart, and thus crying out, but be denied, because the desire came from yourself, and not from God? Or is any kind of longing of this nature, going to be from God anyway...and those who never feel this longing, this desire the ones going to hell (gehanna). Is the prescence of such a desire, itself a gift from God, and its apparent prescence in others merely a disguised insincere, selfish desire, masquerading as true, sincere, spritual desire? What about the Asian boy's desire, that in the context of his world, and his culture, would be answered most likely with Buddhism, not Christianity. I suppose you would say that God has nothing to with this, and therefore, by default, is seen as the activity of the Devil. >I do not understand why you feel that a just God would not punish >anyone. It is, after all, His preannounced punishment of eternal >damnation that we all really do deserve. A truly just God must dispense >the punishment which He has declared ahead of time to be the wages of >each of our sins. He is, in fact, so just that He had to take that very >same punishment of eternal damnation upon Himself in order to permit ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ Aren't you Christians going to be lonely in Heaven without God around? ;-) >the punishments of every single person. This may be a scenario that we >do not find very pleasant, but then God doesn't find our sin very >pleasant either. Please concede that the phrase "All Loving God" is a catch phrase, that does not fit the pitcure of God that you paint. For by your own words you say you believe that God simply does not choose everyone, but rather chooses and elect few. It is certainly His option to step in and do what he has to do for the rest of us, only for reasons only He knows, he does not want us all. He does not love us, for if he loved us, I can't see why he would fail to save us. By your own admission, there is nothing about yourself that is worth anything. You are a wretched, insidious individual. But apparently there is something about YOU that God loves, because he has spared you the most henious of tragdedies. What is so special about you, and not me. Nothing. It is simply God's choice. If this is Chrisitianity, I, in considering the possiblity of its truth, find no joy, but only sorrow. And what a selfish joy it can only offer! How can heart that loves witness the mass destruction of people, and still revel in the joy of its own salvation. I find only sorrow. -- -jrossi@jato.jpl.nasa.gov "Constantly choosing the lesser of two evils -ames!elroy!jato!jrossi is still choosing evil." -Cptn. Trips **********************STANDARD DISCLAIMER******************************