[soc.religion.christian] Two types of Faith - Was Once Saved Always Saved

davidbu@tekigm2.men.tek.com (David Buxton) (12/19/89)

[Ken writes] 
> . . . .
> 
> James 2:14 describes a faith that does not save.  I believe what
> distinguishes the faith of Luke 8:13 and James 2:14 from the faith that
> Paul talks about in Ephesians is that the latter is clearly stated as
> being the gift of God.  The former faith is not.  Instead it is the
> same kind of faith that the demons have (James 2:19).
>
> . . .

Two types of Faith - is it a question of whether we have the  Faith vs does
God gives us the Faith? The more we know about Jesus and what He did for us
and the more  we grow in our ralationship with Him the  more will our Faith
in Him grow and grow - like the mustard seed parable.   The grace of God is  
His gift to us and Faith is our response, our growing trust in Him.

The story of Peter walking on the water comes to mind  because  this  is  a
story that illustrates two types of Faith.  Peter had been with Christ long
enough to know about miracles and to know they are genuine.  His  Faith  is
in  Jesus  when he leaps over the side of the boat.  Then his faith reverts
to a faith in man - Look, see, me Peter. Is everyone watching?  Look  guys!
I'm walking on the water.  Instantly he starts to sink.

The same thing can happen to a powerful evangelist for  Christ.   Early  in
his  ministry  he  knows  it  is  the Holy Spirit that brings the crowds to
repentance.  But after awhile he begins to glory  in  his  own  ability  to
bring converts to Christ.

And the same thing certainly happens in my life.  Its so easy to  trust  in
man instead of in God.

Faith in God vs faith in man.  Let us all be  careful  to  keep  our  Faith
firmly placed upon the only right and firm foundation.  As our relationship
with Him grows, so will our Faith in Him grow.

I also agree with Ken.    The demons have a faith that Jesus is and was who
He claimed to be.   Their faith,   in this sense, may be even stronger than
ours.  But clearly, such a faith cannot save anyone.   The Faith that saves
is a Faith that changes us, that bears the fruit of righteousness.

Dave (David E. Buxton)

davidbu@tekigm2.MEN.TEK.COM

MATH1H3@uhvax1.uh.edu (David H. Wagner) (12/21/89)

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From: math1h3@elroy.uh.edu
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Subject: Re: Two types of Faith - Was Once Saved Always Saved
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Date: 19 Dec 89 11:11:37 CST
References: <Dec.19.02.23.04.1989.14739@athos.rutgers.edu>
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> [Ken writes] 
>> . . . .
>> 
>> James 2:14 describes a faith that does not save.  I believe what
>> distinguishes the faith of Luke 8:13 and James 2:14 from the faith that
>> Paul talks about in Ephesians is that the latter is clearly stated as
>> being the gift of God.  The former faith is not.  Instead it is the
>> same kind of faith that the demons have (James 2:19).
>>
>> . . .
What James describes is a faith of knowledge only.  We would say that it is not
faith at all.  The germans have a good phrase for 'believe in,' namely 'glauben
an', which literally is 'believe on'.  Faith is believing on Jesus, relying on
him for salvation.  The demons do not do this.  But in Luke 8:13 Jesus said:
"Those on the rock are ones who receive the word with joy..."  The demons do
not receive the word of God with joy!  Nor is this a faith of knowledge only,
but a faith involving joy.  A person who dies in such a faith is surely saved.

	Notions that suggest our salvation, or election, depend on the quality
of our faith must surely be rejected.  A person should not think "Is my faith
good enough to get me into heaven?"  This is not much different from saying
"Are my works good enough to get me into heaven?" I don't think either Ken or 
Dave Buxton are suggesting this, in fact, they said that it depends on the 
source of 'faith'.  But I think they are treading on thin ice.

David Wagner
My opinions and beliefs are completely separated from my employer's.

kutz@cis.ohio-state.edu (Kenneth J. Kutz) (12/23/89)

I would like to state as a precursor to this article that I believe
no person can take any credit whatsoever for his or her salvation.  It
is a gift of God, not of works, lest any man should boast.  At the same
time, the Bible does give us tests to see whether our salvation is real
or self deception.

> What James describes is a faith of knowledge only.  We would say that it is not
> faith at all.  The germans have a good phrase for 'believe in,' namely 'glauben
> an', which literally is 'believe on'.  Faith is believing on Jesus, relying on
> him for salvation.  The demons do not do this.  But in Luke 8:13 Jesus said:
> "Those on the rock are ones who receive the word with joy..."  The demons do
> not receive the word of God with joy!  Nor is this a faith of knowledge only,
> but a faith involving joy.  A person who dies in such a faith is surely saved.

I agree that a person who dies with faith in Christ's redemptive work
and substitionary sacrifice is surely saved.  The question is: did the
the people in view in Luke 8:13, die with saving faith.  I believe the
passage describes people who come to the knowledge of the truth (yes,
even gladly at first) but when their first test of whether or not
that faith is genuine comes along, it proves to be dead faith.

"Those on the bedrock are people who hear the word and welcome it gladly,
 but they have no root; they believe for a while and in time of trial
 they fall away."

We know two "bad" things about these people in view.  

(1) The believe for a while (implies this belief ends)
(2) In the time of trial they fall away

There are many scriptures which indicate that a true believer in Christ,
one that is born again, does not fall away or discontinue their
belief, but rather "endures to the end" (Heb 10:38-39, Heb 6:4-6,9).

The book of First John is an excellent book to read if one wishes
to determine whether or not their faith is real (genuine, alive).
John writes:

"They went out from us but they never belonged to us; for had they
 been ours, they would have remained with us." 1 John 2:19

Listen to what he says in this same chapter:

"If what you heard from the beginning stays with you, then you will
 remain in union with the Son and with the Father.  And this is
 what He Himself has promised us, eternal life." 1 John 2:24b-25

James first test of legitimate, living faith is the test of trials.
This is what he says:

"Blessed is the man who stands up under trial; for when he has
 stood the test, he will receive the crown of life that God has
 promised to those who love Him."

I believe that the people who base the reality of their salvation on
the fact that at one point in time they "heard the word and welcomed
it gladly" are in danger of being deceived.  Yes justification is
by faith alone which is a gift of God.  The Bible lists the 
qualites and characteristics of that faith.  "Falling away" isn't
in the list.  "Endurance to the end" is.


-- 
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