davidbu@tekigm2.men.tek.com (David Buxton) (12/19/89)
[Ken writes] > . . . . > > James 2:14 describes a faith that does not save. I believe what > distinguishes the faith of Luke 8:13 and James 2:14 from the faith that > Paul talks about in Ephesians is that the latter is clearly stated as > being the gift of God. The former faith is not. Instead it is the > same kind of faith that the demons have (James 2:19). > > . . . Two types of Faith - is it a question of whether we have the Faith vs does God gives us the Faith? The more we know about Jesus and what He did for us and the more we grow in our ralationship with Him the more will our Faith in Him grow and grow - like the mustard seed parable. The grace of God is His gift to us and Faith is our response, our growing trust in Him. The story of Peter walking on the water comes to mind because this is a story that illustrates two types of Faith. Peter had been with Christ long enough to know about miracles and to know they are genuine. His Faith is in Jesus when he leaps over the side of the boat. Then his faith reverts to a faith in man - Look, see, me Peter. Is everyone watching? Look guys! I'm walking on the water. Instantly he starts to sink. The same thing can happen to a powerful evangelist for Christ. Early in his ministry he knows it is the Holy Spirit that brings the crowds to repentance. But after awhile he begins to glory in his own ability to bring converts to Christ. And the same thing certainly happens in my life. Its so easy to trust in man instead of in God. Faith in God vs faith in man. Let us all be careful to keep our Faith firmly placed upon the only right and firm foundation. As our relationship with Him grows, so will our Faith in Him grow. I also agree with Ken. The demons have a faith that Jesus is and was who He claimed to be. Their faith, in this sense, may be even stronger than ours. But clearly, such a faith cannot save anyone. The Faith that saves is a Faith that changes us, that bears the fruit of righteousness. Dave (David E. Buxton) davidbu@tekigm2.MEN.TEK.COM
MATH1H3@uhvax1.uh.edu (David H. Wagner) (12/21/89)
Path: elroy!math1h3 From: math1h3@elroy.uh.edu Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian Subject: Re: Two types of Faith - Was Once Saved Always Saved Message-ID: <5270.258e1769@elroy.uh.edu> Date: 19 Dec 89 11:11:37 CST References: <Dec.19.02.23.04.1989.14739@athos.rutgers.edu> Organization: University of Houston News-Moderator: Approval required for posting to soc.religion.christian Lines: 27 > [Ken writes] >> . . . . >> >> James 2:14 describes a faith that does not save. I believe what >> distinguishes the faith of Luke 8:13 and James 2:14 from the faith that >> Paul talks about in Ephesians is that the latter is clearly stated as >> being the gift of God. The former faith is not. Instead it is the >> same kind of faith that the demons have (James 2:19). >> >> . . . What James describes is a faith of knowledge only. We would say that it is not faith at all. The germans have a good phrase for 'believe in,' namely 'glauben an', which literally is 'believe on'. Faith is believing on Jesus, relying on him for salvation. The demons do not do this. But in Luke 8:13 Jesus said: "Those on the rock are ones who receive the word with joy..." The demons do not receive the word of God with joy! Nor is this a faith of knowledge only, but a faith involving joy. A person who dies in such a faith is surely saved. Notions that suggest our salvation, or election, depend on the quality of our faith must surely be rejected. A person should not think "Is my faith good enough to get me into heaven?" This is not much different from saying "Are my works good enough to get me into heaven?" I don't think either Ken or Dave Buxton are suggesting this, in fact, they said that it depends on the source of 'faith'. But I think they are treading on thin ice. David Wagner My opinions and beliefs are completely separated from my employer's.
kutz@cis.ohio-state.edu (Kenneth J. Kutz) (12/23/89)
I would like to state as a precursor to this article that I believe no person can take any credit whatsoever for his or her salvation. It is a gift of God, not of works, lest any man should boast. At the same time, the Bible does give us tests to see whether our salvation is real or self deception. > What James describes is a faith of knowledge only. We would say that it is not > faith at all. The germans have a good phrase for 'believe in,' namely 'glauben > an', which literally is 'believe on'. Faith is believing on Jesus, relying on > him for salvation. The demons do not do this. But in Luke 8:13 Jesus said: > "Those on the rock are ones who receive the word with joy..." The demons do > not receive the word of God with joy! Nor is this a faith of knowledge only, > but a faith involving joy. A person who dies in such a faith is surely saved. I agree that a person who dies with faith in Christ's redemptive work and substitionary sacrifice is surely saved. The question is: did the the people in view in Luke 8:13, die with saving faith. I believe the passage describes people who come to the knowledge of the truth (yes, even gladly at first) but when their first test of whether or not that faith is genuine comes along, it proves to be dead faith. "Those on the bedrock are people who hear the word and welcome it gladly, but they have no root; they believe for a while and in time of trial they fall away." We know two "bad" things about these people in view. (1) The believe for a while (implies this belief ends) (2) In the time of trial they fall away There are many scriptures which indicate that a true believer in Christ, one that is born again, does not fall away or discontinue their belief, but rather "endures to the end" (Heb 10:38-39, Heb 6:4-6,9). The book of First John is an excellent book to read if one wishes to determine whether or not their faith is real (genuine, alive). John writes: "They went out from us but they never belonged to us; for had they been ours, they would have remained with us." 1 John 2:19 Listen to what he says in this same chapter: "If what you heard from the beginning stays with you, then you will remain in union with the Son and with the Father. And this is what He Himself has promised us, eternal life." 1 John 2:24b-25 James first test of legitimate, living faith is the test of trials. This is what he says: "Blessed is the man who stands up under trial; for when he has stood the test, he will receive the crown of life that God has promised to those who love Him." I believe that the people who base the reality of their salvation on the fact that at one point in time they "heard the word and welcomed it gladly" are in danger of being deceived. Yes justification is by faith alone which is a gift of God. The Bible lists the qualites and characteristics of that faith. "Falling away" isn't in the list. "Endurance to the end" is. -- Kenneth J. Kutz Internet kutz@andy.bgsu.edu Systems Programmer BITNET KUTZ@BGSUOPIE University Computer Services UUCP ...!osu-cis!bgsuvax!kutz Bowling Green State Univ. US Mail 238 Math Science, BG OH 43403