JRA102@psuvm.psu.edu (Jim Achuff) (12/11/89)
In article <Dec.6.00.53.43.1989.11391@athos.rutgers.edu>, jrossi@jato.jpl.nasa.gov (The Electric Sol) says: >>As for your second statement, Christians have already avoided eternal >>punishment. That's why they're Christians. > >So theysaved themselves? Have you saved yourself? Do you know for a >fact that you are "saved?" Have you ever entertained a temptation, >but resisted it because you "feared" God? Are you certain that you >did so only because you're grateful to God for saving you, and not >because deep inside you feared the consequences of disobeying God. >The reasons for this are that I know many Christians who resist things >because, as they have stated, they fear Hell. No one can save him/herself. Only Christ can save us. And yes, I do know that I'm saved, because I believe that Crist died for my sins, and I have asked that his Spirit will dwell in me and guide me. The Spirit convicts me of my sins as they occur, and I know when I have committed a sin, but I also know that as soon as I acknowledge that sin, it is forgiven and forgotten, and I am once again white as snow through Christ. As far as fearing death, Hell; no, I'm not afraid, because my savior has already served my time in Hell, and death has been conquered. I know where I will spend eternity, how about you? ****** ** ** **** ** ** ****** | Jim Achuff | First you ** **** ** ** **** ** * | 125 Beaver Hall | must ** ** ****** ** ** | University Park, PA 16802 | believe ** **** ** ** ** ** * | (814) 862-6812 | Then you ****** ** ** **** ** ****** | JRA102@PSUVM.BITNET | can Jesus Christ God Son Savior | JRA102@PSUVM.PSU.EDU | Understand
geoff@pmafire.UUCP (Geoff Allen) (12/15/89)
jrossi@jato.jpl.nasa.gov (The Electric Sol) asks: >>Do you know for a fact that you are "saved?" And JRA102@psuvm.psu.edu (Jim Achuff) responds: >...yes, I do know >that I'm saved, because I believe that Crist died for my sins, and I have >asked that his Spirit will dwell in me and guide me. And this is the testimony: God has given us eternal life and this life is in his Son. He who has the Son has life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have life. I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God so that you may know that you have eternal life. (I John 5:11-13, NIV) I *know* that I have eternal life (I am `saved') because I `believe in the name of the Son of God.' That's the only requirement, `that whosoever believeth in Him should not perish, but have everlasting life.' (John 3:16) -- Geoff Allen \ Wise men still seek Him. {uunet|bigtex}!pmafire!geoff \ ----- ucdavis!egg-id!pmafire!geoff \
jrossi@jato.Jpl.Nasa.Gov (The Electric Sol) (12/15/89)
In article <Dec.11.03.32.30.1989.22996@athos.rutgers.edu> JRA102@psuvm.psu.edu (Jim Achuff) writes: >In article <Dec.6.00.53.43.1989.11391@athos.rutgers.edu>, >No one can save him/herself. Only Christ can save us. And yes, I do know >that I'm saved, because I believe that Crist died for my sins, and I have Am I stupid? Does anyone else at least see fundamental contradiction that I am grappling with ... if I am to honestly come to faith in Christ, this question must be asked. It dosen't even necessarily have to be answered. The fact that there is only one response like this one, is, indeed, re- assuring, however, let me point out it is again this kind of immature response that is alienting to a lot of people, it is a turn off. The fundamental problem being it seems that we *have* to do something to be saved. We have to *desire* it. We have to *want* it. Jesus is willing to throw us a rope, if we ask him to, right. Does this desire come from us or from God? If it does come from us, as some one else pointed out, we do have, however small, reason to boast. If it dosen't come from us but from God, then a Just God cannot punish anyone, IMHO. It seems that God is willing to save us, If we are willing to make the effort to be saved. We can't do so without his help, and likewise, he can't without our *desire* to let him. And that *desire* manifests itself in the appropiate attempts at change in behavior. Now *where* does this desire come from...by originating in our hearts and free will? Or does God put it there? If God puts it there, I think we arrive at Calvinism. If we put it there, we arrive at Free Will...which means "we saved ourselves in so much as we did what God required of us in order to "throw us a rope." >As far as fearing death, Hell; no, I'm not afraid, because my savior has >already served my time in Hell, and death has been conquered. I know where I >will spend eternity, how about you? It angers me to be taunted and intimidated in this manner. For what its worth, I believe I am one with eternity. I believe I am because of the Grace of God. My oneness with eternity is a free gift from God. The neat thing is I can now continue to live my life as I want, and whats even neater, is I want to live a life of love and peace. Take Care -- -jrossi@jato.jpl.nasa.gov "Constantly choosing the lesser of two evils -ames!elroy!jato!jrossi is still choosing evil." -Cptn. Trips **********************STANDARD DISCLAIMER******************************
jrossi@jato.jpl.nasa.gov (The Electric Sol) (12/17/89)
In article <Dec.14.23.45.38.1989.14969@athos.rutgers.edu> geoff@pmafire.UUCP (Geoff Allen) says >I *know* that I have eternal life (I am `saved') because I `believe in >the name of the Son of God.' [I Jn 5:13, which he quoted in the >origional posting --clh] That's the only requirement, `that >whosoever believeth in Him should not perish, but have everlasting >life.' (John 3:16) God has told you what is good; and what is it that the Lord asks of you? Only to act justly, to love mercy, and to walk humbly before your God. Micah 6:8 Read Luke 10:25-37 and tell me what Jesus asks of us. "oh, ho, what I want to know, oh, is ARE YOU KIND? -Grateful Dead. No matter how hard you bind yourself to the name Jesus, if you fail to bind yourself to kindness, you are lost. -jrossi@jato.jpl.nasa.gov "Constantly choosing the lesser of two evils -ames!elroy!jato!jrossi is still choosing evil." -Cptn. Trips **********************STANDARD DISCLAIMER******************************
davem@watmath.waterloo.edu (Dave Mielke) (12/17/89)
In article <Dec.15.00.31.15.1989.17120@athos.rutgers.edu> jrossi@jato.Jpl.Nasa.Gov (The Electric Sol) writes: >The fundamental problem being it seems that we *have* to do something >to be saved. We have to *desire* it. We have to *want* it. Jesus >is willing to throw us a rope, if we ask him to, right. Does this >desire come from us or from God? If it does come from us, as some >one else pointed out, we do have, however small, reason to boast. If >it dosen't come from us but from God, then a Just God cannot punish >anyone, IMHO. The desire must ceom from God and not from us. If it comes from us then we would, as you have correctly and humbly observed, have cause to boast. The Scriptures declare that God has done things in a manner which does not permit us to boast. Ephesians 2:8-9 says "For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: {it is} the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.". This passage also tells us something extremely important which also confirms that the desire comes from God. It tells us that the faith which we must have, i.e. the desire which we are discussing, is a gift from God. A gift is freely given, and is neither bought nor earned. I do not understand why you feel that a just God would not punish anyone. It is, after all, His preannounced punishment of eternal damnation that we all really do deserve. A truly just God must dispense the punishment which He has declared ahead of time to be the wages of each of our sins. He is, in fact, so just that He had to take that very same punishment of eternal damnation upon Himself in order to permit Himself to forgive those whom He wanted to save from it. His perfect justness is not marred because He has not chosen to take upon Himself the punishments of every single person. This may be a scenario that we do not find very pleasant, but then God doesn't find our sin very pleasant either. Dave Mielke, 613-726-0014 856 Grenon Avenue Ottawa, Ontario, Canada K2B 6G3
jrossi@jato.jpl.nasa.gov (The Electric Sol) (12/19/89)
In article <Dec.17.02.27.20.1989.15520@athos.rutgers.edu> bnr-fos!bmers58!davem@watmath.waterloo.edu (Dave Mielke) writes: > >The desire must ceom from God and not from us. If it comes from us then >we would, as you have correctly and humbly observed, have cause to >boast. The Scriptures declare that God has done things in a manner >which does not permit us to boast. Ephesians 2:8-9 says "For by grace Of course, He has taken away your free will. Do you want to suggest that you could choose *Not* to be a Christian. One of the chosen, stepping down, as it were. You are a robot, predestined to act out the will of God. But I thought that God didn't want Robots. With this, free will is neither. Its paid for by Christ on the cross, ( and what a price! ) and its not your will, but God's. Which is it, Dave? Do you turn to Christ out of free will ( reason to boast ), or does He force you? >have, i.e. the desire which we are discussing, is a gift from God. A >gift is freely given, and is neither bought nor earned. But can it be declined? Now I'm not talking the reprobate who can never understand acting out his own rebellion, but one of the actual elect exercising their free will and choosing something other than the Will of God. Are you, in fact prisoners of Grace, robots of love, puppets with strings reaching into Heaven. Now as the elect, you have the gifts of understanding through the hOly sPirIt, and *know* not only how, but why you are saved, even if only to a human, finite degree. Now since it is possible for you to understand why you were saved, is just as possible for someone to understand why they aren't saved? Can I know for a fact that I am damned, not chosen, etc. Wouldn't my *knowledge* per se, mean I am somehow understanding the scripture, or lending some credence to it. Now is it also possible to want to be saved, out of the longing of your own heart, and thus crying out, but be denied, because the desire came from yourself, and not from God? Or is any kind of longing of this nature, going to be from God anyway...and those who never feel this longing, this desire the ones going to hell (gehanna). Is the prescence of such a desire, itself a gift from God, and its apparent prescence in others merely a disguised insincere, selfish desire, masquerading as true, sincere, spritual desire. What about the Asian boy's desire, that in the context of his world, and his culture, would be answered most likely with Buddhism, not Christianity. I suppose you would say that God has nothing to with this, and therefore, by default, is seen as the activity of the Devil. >I do not understand why you feel that a just God would not punish >anyone. It is, after all, His preannounced punishment of eternal >damnation that we all really do deserve. A truly just God must dispense >the punishment which He has declared ahead of time to be the wages of >each of our sins. He is, in fact, so just that He had to take that very >same punishment of eternal damnation upon Himself in order to permit ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ Aren't you Christians going to be lonely in Heaven without God around? ;-) >the punishments of every single person. This may be a scenario that we >do not find very pleasant, but then God doesn't find our sin very >pleasant either. Please concede that the phrase "All Loving God" is a buzz word, that does not fit the pitcure of God that you paint. For by your own words you say you believe that God simply does not choose everyone, but rather chooses and elect few. It is certainly His option to step in and do what he has to do for the rest of us, only for reasons only He knows, he does not want us all. He does not love us, for if he loved us, I can't see why he would fail to save us. By your own admission, there is nothing about yourself that is worth anything. You are a wretched, insidious individual. But apparently there is something about YOU that God loves, because he has spared you the most henious of tragdedies. What is so special about you, and not me. Nothing. It is simply God's choice. Congratulations on making the cut. I sure wish God loved me, but, hey we CAn't all be winners, now can we? Somebody has to lose. Them the breaks, I guess. Take Care, Peace. Be sure to write. :-) -- -jrossi@jato.jpl.nasa.gov "Constantly choosing the lesser of two evils -ames!elroy!jato!jrossi is still choosing evil." -Cptn. Trips **********************STANDARD DISCLAIMER******************************
phys-bb@garnet.berkeley.edu (12/19/89)
In article <Dec.14.23.45.38.1989.14969@athos.rutgers.edu> geoff@pmafire.UUCP (Geoff Allen) writes: > >I *know* that I have eternal life (I am `saved') because I `believe in >the name of the Son of God.' That's the only requirement, `that >whosoever believeth in Him should not perish, but have everlasting >life.' (John 3:16) > But our word 'belief' doesn't even come close to completely translating the greek word 'pistis'. Pistis is any act which is based upon a belief, supported by confidence that the belief is true. Substituting the word 'belief' for the greek word pistis is from a philological standpoint the greatest insult the English language has ever committed, in my opinion. We should coin a new verb: to 'faithe'. phys-bb@garnet.berkeley.edu ". . .into the narrow lanes, (John Warren) I can't stumble or stay put. . ."
davem@watmath.waterloo.edu (Dave Mielke) (12/25/89)
In article <Dec.19.01.19.30.1989.14416@athos.rutgers.edu> jrossi@jato.jpl.nasa.gov (The Electric Sol) writes: >... Which is it, Dave? Do >you turn to Christ out of free will ( reason to boast ), or does He >force you? The Scriptures do not teach that man has free will. No matter how tempting it is to want to believe that we have free will, and no matter how Scriptural the concept of man's having free will may seem because so many people who proffess Christianity discuss it as though it really were a reality, you will not find one single statement in the entire Bible in support of it. Regardless of all the various self-gratifying concepts that people invent, I, for one, refuse to believe anything unless God Himself has declared it to be true within the Scriptures. The Scriptures teach that an unsaved person is dead in his sins and that it is God who must make him alive (quicken him). Ephesians 2:1-3 says "And you {hath he quickened}, who were dead in trespasses and sins: Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience: Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.". Whether I like it or not, this passage is telling me some rather awful things about myself. It is telling me that I used to be just like any other unsaved person, including those who will never become saved. It is telling me that I used to only be interested in worldly activities and concepts, and that all of this worldly oriented stuff is of the devil. It is telling me that I used to be completely self-centred, only seeking to satisfy those lustful desires which were conceived within my own sin deadened flesh and mind. It is telling me that my entire conduct was fully deserving of the full weight of the wrath of God. Its opening phrase is a good summary of the entire passage. It tells me that I was dead in trespasses and sins and that, since a dead person cannot voluntarily choose to live, God had to make that decision for me. Honest reflection on my past reveals that these declarations are all absolutely true. I did not have the free will then to choose to do things God's way as I was a child, i.e. slave, of Satan. The next few verses confirm that God, and not myself, not only decided that I should be saved from the consequences of my sinful ways but also did everything that was necessary in order to achieve this goal. Ephesians 2:4-7 says "But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;) And hath raised {us} up together, and made {us} sit together in heavenly {places} in Christ Jesus: That in the ages to come he might show the exceeding riches of his grace in {his} kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.". God did not save me because I was smart enough to know that I needed to be saved; I was, after all, dead in trespasses and sins. He saved me because He wanted to demonstrate the richness of His mercy and because of His great, yet totally undeserved, love for me. Even though I much prefer my present state, honesty obligates me to admit that I had absolutely no say in the matter. I am, and shall eternally be, extremely greatful to God and extremely aware of my own former stupidity and ignorance. The next verse declares that even the fact that I was able to begin to trust God was a gift from Him. Ephesians 2:8 says "For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: {it is} the gift of God:". This declaration is telling me that it would have been totally impossible for me to exercise confidence and trust in Him were it not that He decided that He wanted me to be able to do so. Ephesians 2:9 explains why by telling us "Not of works, lest any man should boast.". He doesn't want me to be able to claim any credit whatsoever for His work of grace in my life. A further search of the Scriptures reveals that at least one of the reasons that God has done things this way is to protect me from committing a very grievous sin. 1 Corinthians 10:31 commands "Whether therefore ye eat, or drink, or whatsoever ye do, do all to the glory of God.". The "whatsoever" necessarily covers every single thing that I do or think, including my accounting for the fact that I have faith in Him. If I were to claim that my faith in Him originated within myself then I would be glorifying myself and not God. Likewise, if I were to claim that my continued faith in Him was due to my own desire to remain saved then I would also be glorifying my own abilities and not those of God. To confirm that my continued faith is also the result of God's work in my life, Hebrews 12:2 begins "Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of {our} faith;". With God sustaining my faith it would be inconceivable to even think that I would have the ability to refuse it. >But can it be declined? Now I'm not talking the reprobate who can never >understand acting out his own rebellion, but one of the actual elect >exercising their free will and choosing something other than the Will >of God. Earlier I quoted a passage which declared that God saves a person because of His great love for that person. It was Ephesians 2:4 which says "But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,". Loss of salvation would mean condemnation to eternal separation from God, and that is just not possible for someone whom God loves. God's own description of His own love eliminates the possibility of fear that a saved person could ever lose his salvation. Romans 8:38-39 says "For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.". >Now since it is possible for you to understand why you were saved, is just >as possible for someone to understand why they aren't saved? Can I know >for a fact that I am damned, not chosen, etc. Wouldn't my *knowledge* >per se, mean I am somehow understanding the scripture, or lending some >credence to it. Now is it also possible to want to be saved, out of >the longing of your own heart, and thus crying out, but be denied, because >the desire came from yourself, and not from God? Or is any kind of >longing of this nature, going to be from God anyway...and those who never >feel this longing, this desire the ones going to hell (gehanna). Is >the prescence of such a desire, itself a gift from God, and its apparent >prescence in others merely a disguised insincere, selfish desire, masquerading >as true, sincere, spritual desire. It is most definitely possible for a person to know if he has been saved. The Scriptures, in fact, command us to insure that we are saved. 2 Peter 1:10 , for example, says "Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:". As another contributer to this newsgroup has already pointed out, the entire first epistle of John is devoted to helping a person determine if he has truly become saved. Among other things, it asks us to make a sincere analysis of the true motives behind the various actions that we do and the various thoughts that we have. 1 John 2:3-5, for example, says "And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments. He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.". One of the ways that we can be sure that we have been saved is if we find within ourselves a sincere and on-going desire to live in a manner which is pleasing to God. This passage is telling us that if we think we are saved yet knowingly involve ourselves in activities which we know to be contrary to Godly living then we are merely deluding ourselves and are still unsaved and subject to eternal damnation. There is absolutely no doubt that we can be sure of our salvation if our self-analysis is sincere, honest and complete. 1 John 5:13 says "These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.". Since it is possible for a person to know with certainty that he has been saved, it would logically follow that a person could know if he has not been saved. The problem is that an unsaved person typically does not care about these things. Another complicating factor is that an unsaved person is still dead in trespasses and sins and is, therefore, among other things, incapable of making a truly honest analysis of his own motivations. He may even try comparing his life with the Scriptures but will invariably find ways to justify his consistent inability to meet the standards which they establish. Here are a couple of examples. An unsaved man who wants to divorce his wife may well be aware of Matthew 19:5-6 in which Jesus declares that there is not to be divorce for any reason whatsoever. It says "And said, For this cause shall a man leave father and mother, and shall cleave to his wife: and they twain shall be one flesh? Wherefore they are no more twain, but one flesh. What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder.". He will, however, probably convince himself that his particular circumstance is an exception to the rule by fabricating the non-Scriptural belief that a truly loving God would not expect him to endure such excessively agonizing suffering. In addition he may selfishly conveniently ignore the real problem which may be that his own life style is causing his wife to under-go excessive stress which, in turn, manifests itself in the way that she is treating him. A woman who wants to speak aloud during the worship service in her church, to make an announcement, to pray, to ask a question, or whatever, may well be aware of 1 Corinthians 14:34-35 in which God declares that she is to remain silent while she is there. It says "Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but {they are commanded} to be under obedience, as also saith the law. And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church.". She is, however, likely to excuse her sinful conduct by deciding that this particular passage was addressed only to some troublesome women in the church at Corinth and not to mankind at large throughout all of history. An alternate justification that is often used is that we are now living within a culturally different setting in which this particular commandment of God no longer applies. A similar scenario is true with respect to those church congregations who find it acceptable to have women pastors. This, too, is a direct violation of the will of God. This is true not only because she would be in violation of the previous passage as a pastor must speak aloud during the worship service but also because God gives us a direct commandment that a woman is not to teach a man spiritual things. 1 Timothy 2:11-12 says "Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection. But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.". Any person who believes that this command only applied to a particular incident, at a particular place, or in a particular time, would do well to read the next few verses which give us God's reason for it. God declares that He has given this command because of events which took place way back in the garden of Eden, thousands of years before, when there were only one man and one woman, the forebearers of us all. It is not possible for a person who is truly seeking God to not have been elected by God to salvation. An unsaved person may know about God, he may even be very familiar with many doctrines as taught in the Scriptures, but he is not interested in getting to know God. To an unsaved person God is more of a theory than a real live person with feelings who is the one and only creator and sovereign ruler of this entire universe and necessarily of man too. An unsaved person does not feel that he is accountable to God for each and every one of his actions and thoughts. Hebrews 9:27 says "And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:". Matthew 12:36 says "But I say unto you, That every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment.". James 2:10 says "For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one {point}, he is guilty of all.". Romans 6:23 says "For the wages of sin {is} death; but the gift of God {is} eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.". Regardless of the reality of all of this, an unsaved person just does not care. He thinks that he can simply believe it out of existence. By far the biggest gambol that people take is with their own eternal futures by taking the chance that hell does not exist just because they don't want it to exist. Romans 3:11 says "There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.". This does not mean that all unsaved people do not try to seek God, but it does mean that none of them are seeking Him for the right reason. God is not interested in hearing from unrepentent sinners. An unsaved person does not have a sincere desire to repent of his sinful ways and to live in a God glorifying manner regardless of what the earthly consequences might be. God has, however, unconditionally promised to save each and every person who falls completely broken-hearted before Him and sincerely pleads for forgiveness. Psalm 51:17 says "The sacrifices of God {are} a broken spirit: a broken and a contrite heart, O God, thou wilt not despise.". The desire to do this can only come from God. While any person on his way to salvation, i.e. being drawn by God to Himself (John 6:44), has these feelings and they are very sincere, he will eventually acknowledge that even those sincere feelings within him were no less than a gift from God Himself too. I am neither a robot nor a puppet, as you put it, because God placed those feelings within me. I shall, rather, forever be indepted to God for having given me the freedom to have those feelings which I so desperately needed yet could not have while I was a slave of Satan. >What about the Asian boy's desire, that in the context of his world, and his >culture, would be answered most likely with Buddhism, not Christianity. Regardless of what any individual person may think, it is God who sets the rules. Our eternal fate cannot be defined or settled merely by what we choose to invent within our own minds. God, the one and only sovereign ruler of this entire universe, has said that the wages of sin is death (Romans 6:23), and that we all have sinned (Romans 3:23). This means that we all deserve death, and it turns out that the death He is referring to is spiritual death, i.e. eternal separation from Him, i.e. eternal damnation. He has also declared that there is only one way to escape this awesome fate, i.e. that the punishment which we deserve be inflicted upon Himself in the person of Jesus Christ. Acts 4:12 says "Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.". A person who is following some religious faith of manmade origin may be satisfying his own immediate emotional needs, but he is in no way doing anything that will cause the one and only real God to look upon him favourably. If a person who is following one of these fake faiths continues in his unbelief until he dies then he must have not been one of those whom God has elected to salvation. This is not to say that all those who are currently involved in any of the various manmade cults are damned. An analysis of those countries which have governments which fervently support one or more of them and which outlaw Christianity will show that numerous people within them have converted to Christianity even though they faced alienation from their families, loss of accomodations, loss of jobs, imprisonment, torture, and death. These are they whom God has elected to salvation even though they were previously involved in extremely non-God glorifying activities. >Please concede that the phrase "All Loving God" is a buzz word, that >does not fit the pitcure of God that you paint. For by your own words >you say you believe that God simply does not choose everyone, but rather >chooses and elect few. It is certainly His option to step in and do what >he has to do for the rest of us, only for reasons only He knows, he does >not want us all. He does not love us, for if he loved us, I can't see why >he would fail to save us. By your own admission, there is nothing about >yourself that is worth anything. You are a wretched, insidious >individual. But apparently there is something about YOU that God loves, >because he has spared you the most henious of tragdedies. What is so >special about you, and not me. Nothing. It is simply God's choice. You are absolutely correct; I am indeed nothing more than a wretched sinner! God did not save me because He saw something in me that was better than what He sees in someone else. God saved me in order to demonstrate His mercy, His love, His omnipotence, etc. You asked that I concede that the phrase "all loving God" is no more than a buzz-phrase. I do not believe that I have ever used this phrase. I have said "infinitely loving" but never "all loving". I am most definitely not speaking on behalf of most of those who proffess Christianity, but I am speaking on behalf of what the Scriptures teach, when I say that God does not love those whom He does not plan to save. The Scriptures teach that God hates the sinner as well as the sin. Psalm 5:5 says "The foolish shall not stand in thy sight: thou hatest all workers of iniquity.". Psalm 11:5 says "The LORD trieth the righteous: but the wicked and him that loveth violence his soul hateth.". The Scriptures also give us the example of twin boys; one (Jacob) was saved because God loved him and the other (Esau) was not saved because God hated him (Genesis 25:25-26, Malachi 1:2-3, Romans 9:9-13). The true magnifiscence of God's love becomes even more evident when we realize that He was able to decide to love some of those whom He hated. While God is not all loving, He is certainly infinitely loving. It would have taken infinite love to save just one person as to do it He had to inflict Himself with infinite punishment. The fact that He has chosen to save millions of people is an evidence that His love is something greater than infinite. The fact that He has only chosen to save a finite number of people whose total number is finite as well does not make His love less than infinite. Those people who believe that God's love is deffective because He has not chosen to save everyone are merely expressing the sinful idea that God owes us something. Even those whom God has chosen to save do not deserve anything and should merely be thankful for what He, on His own, has decided to do for them to the praise of His own glory. >Be sure to write. :-) As a servent of God, how could I possibly neglect to answer your questions? You have indicated that you are not a Christian yet. This means that you do not feel that you have been saved from eternal damnation yet. As such, it is my God-given duty to do my utmost to present His truths to you. I don't know what God's intentions are with respect to you, but be assured that I do not want to see you end up in hell. I would like very much for you to become saved too. Why not read the Bible and constantly measure your life against the standards which it sets? Each time God convicts you of some particular sin in your life, stop, sincerely apologize for it, come up with a plan to remove it from your life as soon as possible, and ask God for His forgiveness. In addition, sincerely ask God for the strength to do these things. Continue believing that God will answer your prayers even if He takes a rather long time to do so. While all of this may seem like your own personal works from our earthly perspective, your continued perseverance, if it is sincere and begins to become more and more involuntary, will be an evidence that God has, in fact, been drawing you to Himself all along. While predestination is most definitely an undeniable reality, don't worry about it too much as you seek God. God has told us about predestination so that we can know the real reason that we finally did become saved. After we have become saved we must not forget to thank Him for all of His efforts and we must be sure to repent from the sin of having dared to claim credit for even our faith. For now just put the issue of God's drawing of you into the background and set out to seek Him with all your heart, all your mind, all your strength, and all your soul. He has promised to give you the strength to do so if you really mean it, and He will, in fact, be the reason that you are seeking Him in that manner if, in fact, you are doing so. Mark 9:24 says "And straightway the father of the child cried out, and said with tears, Lord, I believe; help thou mine unbelief.". Dave Mielke, 613-726-0014 856 Grenon Avenue Ottawa, Ontario, Canada K2B 6G3