jimfig@attctc.dallas.tx.us (Jim Fiegenschue) (12/21/89)
Since it is nearly Christmas and lots of discussion abounds about God sending his only begotten Son to save us by dying for our sins and washing us clean with his blood, I just wanted to ask some of you why this makes any sense and why one should give this God any credit for setting up such a silly system in the first place. We are talking about THE GOD, aren't we? One that created the entire universe and therefore made up all the rules, right? So why did He set up such silly rules as to make it necessary to make a Son through a virgin pure woman right before she gets married and then have this Son agree to die in order to save us from ourselves? And why should we give Jesus so much credit for agreeing to die? He is God too, right? If anyone knows that life is eternal it should be the God that made it so in the first place, right? So why get all excited about a God agreeing to die when it is His idea to do so in the first place? ---- I'm sure you get my drift by now. I just don't see this at all! It seems to me that people just have an incredible amount of guilt and very low self esteem and get excited thinking that a God would actually die for them to show how much He loves them. Personally I find the entire idea rather repugnant and disgusting and would much prefer that this nice God didn't die and we'd all just be nice to each other anyhow. Please don't flame me! I'm seriously curious how one thinks this way. From a moral agnostic/atheist: Meg Fiegenschue attctc.Dallas.TX.US!jimfig I'd appreciate postings rather than mailings. Thanks! Happy Solstice! and Merry Merry...
sandrock@aries.scs.uiuc.edu (Mark T. Sandrock) (12/23/89)
In article <Dec.21.02.39.49.1989.21874@athos.rutgers.edu> jimfig@attctc.dallas.tx.us (Jim Fiegenschue) writes: > >Since it is nearly Christmas and lots of discussion abounds about God sending >his only begotten Son to save us by dying for our sins and washing us clean >with his blood, I just wanted to ask some of you why this makes any sense >and why one should give this God any credit for setting up such a silly >system in the first place. Meg, you are absolutely correct to question such teachings, because the pure and simple fact is that they are WRONG! The PERFECTION of GOD could never allow for such a travesty, all human opinions and wishes notwithstanding. Jesus Himself said: "I am come to uphold the Law, not to overthrow It", and the PERFECT LAWS say that there can be no birth without a previous *physical* procreation, all human opinions and wishes notwithstanding. The PERFECT LAW also says that no one can take the guilt of another upon himself. Not even Jesus, Who came to uphold the Law. For GOD to have to act *against* HIS own PERFECT LAWS would have to imply an imperfection in these LAWS, and therefore in GOD HIMSELF. And this is *not* the case, all human opinions and wishes notwithstanding. Those who are seriously interested in learning more about GOD and about HIS PERFECT LAWS are advised to read the work: "IN THE LIGHT OF TRUTH", the Grail Message, by Abd-ru-shin, for full explanations. Best Wishes! Mark Sandrock UIUC Chemical Sciences
st0o+@andrew.cmu.edu (Steven Timm) (12/23/89)
Meg Fiegenschue writes: > So why did He set up such silly >rules as to make it necessary to make a Son through a virgin pure woman >right before she gets married and then have this Son agree to die in order >to save us from ourselves? The reason is that we needed saving from ourselves. God didn't have to do any of this. The process of God becoming man is more than a legal maneuver to fulfill rules. It is the God of the universe wanting to restore a relationship with His fallen creation. If you believe the Bible account, Jesus asked for there to be any other way but the way He eventually took. The idea of separation from God involved tremendous risk. But the only way to restore man's relationship was for God to become man. He became like us so that we could become like Him.
davem@watmath.waterloo.edu (Dave Mielke) (01/01/90)
In article <Dec.21.02.39.49.1989.21874@athos.rutgers.edu> jimfig@attctc.dallas.tx.us (Meg Fiegenschue) writes: >Since it is nearly Christmas and lots of discussion abounds about God sending >his only begotten Son to save us by dying for our sins and washing us clean >with his blood, I just wanted to ask some of you why this makes any sense >and why one should give this God any credit for setting up such a silly >system in the first place. The method by which God has brought salvation to mankind is not silly at all, although I can understand why someone who has not been given faith yet would see it that way. A correct understanding of it requires that we believe what God has told us in His Word, the Bible, and that we do our best to eliminate any desire to believe what we fabricate in our own minds about ourselves. An example of what I am referring to is that we would like to believe, allowing for a few faults here and there which we write off as being fairly minor, we are a bunch of pretty good people. God, on the other hand, tells us that there is no good whatsoever within any one of us. Romans 3:12, for example, says of mankind in general "They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.". Another example of what I am referring to is how we relate to others. When a typical person makes a mistake he craves the forgiveness of others, yet when that same typical person catches someone else making a mistake he loves to point it out and to feel that it is his God-given responsibility to guide that other person into a set of more appropriate practices which he tends to rather simplistically define as those which are more in keeping with his own imperfect lifestyle. Putting it a little more crudely, allbeit a little more accurately, while a typical person ascribes the best possible motives to his own actions he ascribes the worst possible motives to others' actions. God, on the other hand, would have us spend all of our time working on our own faults and never concerning ourselves with even one single fault within someone else. This necessarily even extends to the two members of a married couple who are commanded to unconditionally love one another regardless of what they may dislike about the other person. One of God's commandments along this line which no one I have ever met, including myself, has been able to keep very well is that each of us is to think of every other person as being better than himself. Philippians 2:3 says "{Let} nothing {be done} through strife or vainglory; but in lowliness of mind let each esteem other better than themselves.". We, i.e. all of us people, have been created in a uniquely different way than anything else in this entire universe. Genesis 1:27 says "So God created man in his {own} image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.". Since God has created us in His own image, He expects us to live up to it. Ecclesiastes 12:13 says "Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this {is} the whole {duty} of man.". Since we have been created in God's own image, and since He is flawless, He does not leave any room in our own individual conduct for even the occasional fault either. Matthew 5:48 says "Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.". As I have already illustrated with a few examples in the initial paragraphs of this response, no single one of us has ever been able to meet these extremely rigorous standards. We know that this is not merely just an impirical observation, but no less than God's own opinion, because Romans 3:23 says "For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;". The term "sin" refers to an act of disobedience with respect to the law which God has given us and demands that we adhear to. 1 John 3:4 says "Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.". If any one of us commits even one sin throughout his entire lifetime then, as far as God is concerned, he is considered to be guilty of the breaking of the entire law. James 2:10 says "For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one {point}, he is guilty of all.". God does not just look at our outward actions when determining whether or not we have sinned; He also looks within us. The Scriptures give us plenty of examples that illustrate that a sinful thought is just as bad, if not worse, than a sinful action. Matthew 5:27-28, for example, says "Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not commit adultery: But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.". God wants us to know that He holds us fully acountable to Himself for the way in which we have conducted our lives. 2 Corinthians 5:10 says "For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things {done} in {his} body, according to that he hath done, whether {it be} good or bad.". It is extremely important to realize that God not only looks at those things which we do but also looks at our thoughts and intents when He assesses our lives, and that He does not miss anything that goes on either around or within us. Hebrews 4:12-13 says "For the word of God {is} quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and {is} a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart. Neither is there any creature that is not manifest in his sight: but all things {are} naked and opened unto the eyes of him with whom we have to do.". Matthew 12:36 says "But I say unto you, That every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment.". As I'm sure you can see by now, were it not for God's plan of salvation, each and every one of us, and that includes you and me, would be found guilty. Romans 6:23 begins "For the wages of sin {is} death;". Without going into a rather long proof here, it turns out that this passage is referring to something that is far more severe than physical death. God is warning us that the penalty for sin, which we all deserve, is eternal spiritual death. You may have heard this fate referred to as hell or as eternal damnation. As we are incapable of knowing exactly what this form of death is like because we have no frame of reference with which to compare it, the Scriptures are full of word illustrations of its awesome horror. Revelation 14:10-11, for example, says "The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb: And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.". If this were the end of it all, then we would all be most miserable. Fortunately there is more. Earlier I quoted the first half of Romans 6:23. The whole verse says "For the wages of sin {is} death; but the gift of God {is} eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.". It is the Lord Jesus Christ who has come to our rescue. God, whose justice system is perfect, is not able to simply overlook some particular persons' sins and is not able to just arbitrarily let some people off the hook either. If He wants to share eternity with some particular person in heaven then the penalty for all of that person's sins must be paid in full. If that person were to pay the penalty for his own sins then he would never make it into heaven as the eternity which he must spend in hell would never come to an end. God, therefore, in the person of Jesus, became a man so that He, as a man, could pay the penalty for a man's sins. He lived among us as one of us, permitted Himself to be subject to a bunch of worse temptations than any of us have ever been subjected to, and finally, after having lived a sinless life, endured the full weight of eternal damnation for all of the sins of all of those whom He intended to save from it. This is what makes Jesus so special, and why all Christians cannot help but look upon Him with awe and wonder at all times. He paid the full penalty for all of my sins by enduring the equivalent of an eternity in hell such that I need not ever fear it! Has He done the same for you? Dave Mielke, 613-726-0014 856 Grenon Avenue Ottawa, Ontario, Canada K2B 6G3
st0o+@andrew.cmu.edu (Steven Timm) (01/07/90)
By private communication [name omitted. You really should avoid posting private communications unless you know they were intended to be made public. --clh] made the following request about my comment >Can you try again to answer this one for me! My response back would have >to be: So why did God make the requirement to save us from ourselves as >having to have a part of Him become human and then die? God made up this >system, didn't He? AND....why do we need saving from ourselves? What does >this mean? What are we being saved from? Ourselves???? Why is this the >only way? Sort of a silly way, isn't it? And what is the risk to a God >that created everything? What risk? 1. Why did God make the requirement? Nothing required God to make the sacrifice. Jesus Christ came to the earth of his own free will, and if He had not come, He could have survived with no risk to himself. His response was more like a parent trying to save a child from drowning (after the child had jumped into the water against the parent's orders) 2. Why did we need to be saved from ourselves, and what risk was involved? It's true that God created everything, but man (with help from the devil) has perverted the original beautiful creation (where everybody was nice and moral and nobody had to die). Jesus Christ became man and risked falling into the same trap of sin from which He was trying to rescue us. We didn't deserve to be rescued. But God made an unselfish sacrifice because He saw our need. Just a few words about the original Don't Understand posting. The comment was made that Christians must have awful low self-esteem and be carrying lots of guilt to think that Jesus would die for them. Unfortunately, many of them do. They chastise themselves and go through tremendous guilt trips because they think they were so sinful to "force" Jesus to die. By so doing, they are blocking the one way that they can rid themselves of our guilt. God did not create the problem of sin, yet He sent His son to take all the blame and punishment for that sin so we can live free of guilt, and not be plagued by low self-esteem. May I also add that some Christians use Christ's sacrifice to develop artificially high self-esteem "Jesus died for me--I must have really been worth a lot." In so doing, they trade cause for effect. It is Jesus's death which gives us infinite worth--not vice versa. Realizing that we are of infinite value frees us from having to build ourselves up, or tear ourselves down.