kw1r+@andrew.cmu.edu (Kevin Whitley) (01/15/90)
I had a number of interesting experiences with respect to Santa Claus over the Christmas holidays that I thought I would share. First, my wife (who is an adult convert to Christianity) and myself feel that we should tell our children that Santa Claus is not real, is just a story. The primary motivation is that we perceive a tendency towards the effect: age 5 - Santa Claus is real & God is real, age 10 - Santa Claus is not real therefore God is not real. We wanted to avoid this. The first thing that happened was that I was picking up my son (4) from his day care class and his teacher showed me some artwork he did. They were clipping out pictures from magazines and putting them in "windows" in little houses they had drawn. My son had found a picture of a Mary and Joseph with the infant Jesus and had constructed a little creche - similar to ones he'd seen at church and that we had shown him. The teachers at the school, which is University run and secular, were very apologetic and wrung their hands saying "we didn't want him to make a religious picture, it was his idea"; they have very strict rules against teaching or encouraging religion. I told them I wasn't bothered at all by his picture, was happy that he did it, and wouldn't mind at all if there was some discussion of religion. At the time I thought this was sort of funny. Then several days later my son came home and said something to the effect that he couldn't wait till Santa Claus came. My wife said "Well, Santa Claus isn't really coming, he's just pretend". My son then indignantly told us that Santa Claus was indeed very real, his teachers said so. I still thought this funny but I wondered about why they wouldn't mention God but would tell children lies about Santa Claus. Next Sunday I related this story to a friend at church. His reaction was one of "What! You don't let your children believe in Santa Claus? But they get so much pleasure out of it." I was surprised, and reconsidered my position. Thinking about it I realized that I tell my children the truth about everything, within my ability to tell and their ability to understand. I tell them the truth about people, about the world, about God, about everything. Why should I make this exception for Santa Claus? My wife and I haven't changed our minds, but over Christmas we didn't interfere with the deception being carried out by other parents, even going so far as to cleverly seperate our children from the others so that they wouldn't undecieve the other children (fortunately this was possible without any hurt feelings). Throughout the Christmas season I talked to various people and the reaction was universal - Santa Claus is a perfectly harmless belief for the children, why not let them believe. I cannot think this is right, why should I lie to my children in this one instance? I sort of wonder whether Santa Claus is part of a kind of secular cultural religion that is just assummed by everybody (hence the incident at the daycare). This makes me even more determined that belief in Santa Claus is inappropriate for my children, who I am trying to raise with Christian values and outlook. Anybody have any thoughts? Yours in Christ, Kevin Whitley kw1r@andrew.cmu.edu
kilroy@mimsy.umd.edu (Nancy's Sweetie) (01/18/90)
In article <Jan.15.03.45.15.1990.15236@athos.rutgers.edu> Kevin Whitley
writes about some experiences he had with Santa Claus stories around
Christmas, primarily people who have no problems with telling children
that Santa is `real' in a way that Snoopy is not%.
------
% - Without getting too much into philosophy of what `exists' and what
doesn't, which is often more complex than it seems . . .
------
It struck me as odd that the teachers would object to a creche but then lie
about Santa Claus: not only does it seem that non-Christian parents might
object to the latter at least as much as the former, I would have a problem
leaving my children in the care of people who would lie to them.
Anyway, maybe I'm just stupid but I don't see much difference between
Santa and any other lie. My thinking goes like this:
a) Lying to others is a Bad Thing. (given - see Golden Rule)
b) Santa does not `exist'. (my best determination)
c) Saying that Santa is `real' is a lie. (definition of `lie' & (b))
d) Therefore, saying that Santa is `real'
is a Bad Thing. ( (a) & (c) )
I think the weakest part of this is (a); if one does not believe that lying
is a Bad Thing, then there is no problem. (I suppose that one might say
lying is okay when the alternative, for whatever reason, is worse. I do not
see how this exception applies to Santa, however.)
kilroy@cs.umd.edu Darren F. Provine ...uunet!mimsy!kilroy
"No, he won't take religion; he says it's got too many flaws.
He'll bury your God in the same grave that you gave him for Santa Claus."
-- Brad Joyce
[For more details on lying, you might want to look at a book on the
subject by Sissela Bok. I think the title is "Lying". It's an
interesting study by a philosopher. It includes a brief summary of
the history of major theological and philosophical views on the
subject, and then some detailed examinations of implications,
particularly in the context of modern issues such as politics and
medical ethics. Bok is apparently part of a group that has been
working with doctors on medical ethics. It deals very specifically
with "white lies". The conclusion I carry from the book is that
"harmless" lies normally aren't. --clh]stq@hrmso.att.com (Scott T Questad) (01/18/90)
In article <Jan.15.03.45.15.1990.15236@athos.rutgers.edu>, kw1r+@andrew.cmu.edu (Kevin Whitley) writes: > Next Sunday I related this story to a friend at church. His reaction > was one of "What! You don't let your children believe in Santa Claus? > But they get so much pleasure out of it." I was surprised, and > reconsidered my position. Let's face it, Santa Claus does NOT really exist. So, to tell someone that Santa Claus exists when he really doesn't is a lie. I think what is more important than whether or not this "pleasurable" little game is fun for your children is the example you set for them. By telling them something is true when it really is not teaches kids that in some instances it's O.K. to lie. I commend your stand on the truth! Truth is a rare commodity these days. Scott Questad att!hrso!stq
hall@vice.ico.tek.com (Hal Lillywhite) (01/18/90)
In article <Jan.15.03.45.15.1990.15236@athos.rutgers.edu> kw1r+@andrew.cmu.edu (Kevin Whitley) writes: >I had a number of interesting experiences with respect to Santa Claus >over the Christmas holidays that I thought I would share. >Thinking about it I realized that I tell my children the truth about >everything, within my ability to tell and their ability to understand. >I tell them the truth about people, about the world, about God, about >everything. Why should I make this exception for Santa Claus? I remember that when I found out the truth about Santa Claus my reaction was, "My parents have been lying to me." I don't want my children to feel that way so we tell them the truth. Actually we present Santa as kind of a synonym for anyone who wants to give presents without the children knowing who it is. This also goes along with the idea of anonymous giving which Jesus taught. What in fact happens is that our children, after associating with others "deceive themselves" into believing in Santa. We don't spend time fighting this, I think what's important is that as parents we not lie to them.
@sun.acs.udel.edu:stabosz@sun.acs.udel.edu (stabosz) (01/18/90)
In article <Jan.15.03.45.15.1990.15236@athos.rutgers.edu> kw1r+@andrew.cmu.edu (Kevin Whitley) writes: >Thinking about it I realized that I tell my children the truth about >everything, within my ability to tell and their ability to understand. >I tell them the truth about people, about the world, about God, about >everything. Why should I make this exception for Santa Claus? I have seven children; we've raised them sort of as two families: the older three and the younger four. With the older three, my husband and I were very careful not to lend creedence to Santa Claus. We didn't exactly sit them down and disabuse them of the notion that Santa was real, but we never played him up and if he came up in conversation around Christmas time, we were very noncommital or said things like, "Gee, I don't know if Santa Claus is real." Our Christmases were still fun, and I didn't think they were missing anything. Still, some of our fellow Catholics thought we were being extreme. (I myself had been sort of terrified of Santa when I was a child; one Christmas my sister and I were afraid to come out of our rooms to go to the bathroom because we were afraid we might run into him and he'd take all the presents away. So I had no fond memories of Santa to contend with.) With the younger four, we've mellowed. The older kids get a kick out of playing up Santa to their little brothers and sisters, and we let them. We still don't do it ourselves, but I have enjoyed seeing them get all excited at the prospect of Santa coming. I don't know why it used to worry me and now it doesn't. I still find that communicating my own strong faith in God to my children is as difficult a task as ever. I bend over backwards not to teach them warped ideas, since I thought that a lot of what I was taught when I was young was warped. Consequently I probably err on the side of using less language about God to them than I should. But I don't think Santa Claus is going to matter much to them one way or another. It is kind of a rite of passage of older childhood to find out that Santa is not real. In some ways this parallels the experience that many adolescents go through, when they "find out" (from the world, from their friends) that God is not real. But the difference is, nobody ever tries to counter their knowledge that Santa is not real: the entire adult world is agreed upon his non-existence. With God, the doubting/agnostic/atheist child or adolescent encounters the same division of belief that any adult encounters. There's no agreement, and the complex of faith goes on. Besides, God IS real: reality and truth resonate in children as well as in adults, at some level. Didn't you always really know that Santa Claus wasn't real? And wasn't it a confirmation of your deepest knowledge, when you found out he wasn't real? -- Rae D. Stabosz University of Delaware
st0o+@andrew.cmu.edu (Steven Timm) (01/18/90)
Kevin Whitley writes: (Jan 15, #3255) > I sort of wonder >whether Santa Claus is part of a kind of secular cultural religion that > is just assummed by everybody . In fact, has Santa Claus become part of our own Christian religion? I find that many Christians ascribe many of the attributes of Santa Claus to God. In our secular cultural tradition, God has unfortunately followed the lead of Santa Claus in becoming the one who is constantly checking to reward us if we're good, and give us coal if we're bad. Santa Claus is the symbol by which we teach our children to want to learn how to get, rather than to give to others as Christ did. In Allegheny County vs. ACLU this summer, the menorah was ruled only a cultural symbol , as was the Christmas scene. Will the nativity scene and the cross of Christ be far behind? Indeed, Santa Claus has great significance to the religion of materialism; he's as close to a god as they have. Soon everyone may think we are celebrating the birthday of X, and easter will degenerate into the celebration of the unselfish bunny which rose up in the morning and laid eggs for everyone.
adg@computer-lab.cambridge.ac.uk (Andy Gordon) (01/18/90)
In article <Jan.15.03.45.15.1990.15236@athos.rutgers.edu> kw1r+@andrew.cmu.edu (Kevin Whitley) writes: >First, my wife (who is an adult convert to Christianity) and myself feel >that we should tell our children that Santa Claus is not real, is just a >story. The primary motivation is that we perceive a tendency towards >the effect: >age 5 - Santa Claus is real & God is real, age 10 - Santa Claus is not >real therefore God is not real. We wanted to avoid this. Kevin, this rings bells with me, as it were. I believe relationships should be based on honesty. You shouldn't lie to people. I'm not a parent and I don't have much experience with children but I believe one's relationship with your child ought to be based on honesty. So I completely agree that one shouldn't tell lies to your kids about Santa Claus. Not only is there a risk of the falsity of Santa Claus implying to a growing child the falsity of God, but there is a risk that the characteristics of Santa Claus are equated with those of God. The usual story is that if children are good throughout the year jolly old Father Christmas will come around on cue and deliver the goodies on Christmas Eve. This yarn juxtaposed with the celebration of the Son of God's incarnation suggests God works on this transactional basis: if you do good, God will shower on you material benefits. God isn't like that, and we shouldn't associate God in children's minds with such a figure. >Kevin Whitley >kw1r@andrew.cmu.edu Andy Gordon Computer Laboratory, Phone: (+44) 223 334650 University of Cambridge, JANET: adg@uk.ac.cam.cl New Museums Site, Pembroke Street, Internet: adg%cam.cl@nsfnet-relay.ac.uk CAMBRIDGE, CB2 3QG, UK. UUCP: ...!mcvax!ukc!cam-cl!adg Computer Laboratory, Phone: (+44) 223 334650 University of Cambridge, JANET: adg@uk.ac.cam.cl New Museums Site, Pembroke Street, Internet: adg%cam.cl@nsfnet-relay.ac.uk CAMBRIDGE, CB2 3QG, UK. UUCP: ...!mcvax!ukc!cam-cl!adg
lab@fibercom.com (Lance Beckner) (01/18/90)
Well, for what it's worth, here's my story. My wife and I were fairly new believers and my daughter was three years old (almost four). This was two years ago. As the Christmas season approached, family friends, and even good ol' mom and dad were filling little Angela's head with stories and details of jolly ol' St. Nick: toys for good kids, flying reindeer, etc. I began to wonder, "is this right?" (H.S. Conviction maybe?). As I said, we were new believers and had been attending our church for 7 or 8 months at this time. So filling her head with spiritual things was a new thing for her too. Judy (my wife) and I talked about the Santa thing several times, expressing our concerns to each other but never really reaching a conclusion. A survey of different people in the church didn't help much either. Our Pastor, and a few others told their kids the truth. Some let their kids go on believing in Santa. The turning point came one night when Angela was getting ready to say her prayers. She said, "God, and Jesus and Santa Clause know if you've been bad or good." My wife and I looked at each other and without having to say anything, I knew we were in agreement. I explained to Her then and there that Santa is not real. He is like Mickey Mouse, Cinderella, or any other fictional character. She still went to see him, sat on his lap, had her picture taken with him. But she knows that he does not really exist. No toys come from him on Christmas morning. As far as dealing with other kids is concerned, we simply explained to Angela that some parents choose to tell their kids that Santa is real, and that it is not up to her to tell them the truth. It is not up to her to second guess someone's parents. So far there haven't been any problems with this. I am not saying that anyone who tells their kids that Santa is real is doing something wrong. I do know that for us it was wrong because Angela was putting the fat man in the red suit on the same level as the creator of the universe. Any parent who has to make this decision should do so prayerfully, seeking above all the will of God in this matter. Peace, Lance -- Lance A. Beckner INTERNET: lab@fibercom.com FiberCom, Inc. UUCP: ...!uunet!fibercom!lab P.O. Box 11966 FAX: (703) 342-5961 Roanoke, VA 24022-1966 PHONE: (703) 342-6700
conan@hilbert.berkeley.edu (David Cruz-Uribe) (01/18/90)
In article <Jan.15.03.45.15.1990.15236@athos.rutgers.edu> kw1r+@andrew.cmu.edu (Kevin Whitley) writes: > >Throughout the Christmas season I talked to various people and the >reaction was universal - Santa Claus is a perfectly harmless belief for >the children, why not let them believe. I cannot think this is right, >why should I lie to my children in this one instance? I sort of wonder >whether Santa Claus is part of a kind of secular cultural religion that >is just assummed by everybody (hence the incident at the daycare). This >makes me even more determined that belief in Santa Claus is >inappropriate for my children, who I am trying to raise with Christian >values and outlook. > Yes Virginia, there is a Santa Claus. :-) For the record, I "believe" in Santa Claus. As a mathematician with Platonist leanings, I believe in the reality of a whole universe of ideal objects--so I guess there is room for a fuzzy cheeked old man in a red suit. :-) Now admittedly, I do not expect children to have a grasp of the subtlties (sp?) of meta-physics. On the other hand, for children (IMHO) "make-believe" is quite different from reality, but is never-the-less just as real. As long as God does not end up in the make-believe category, the two will probably never get lumped together. While Santa Claus has become the principle totem of the secular Christmas, this does not mean that he needs to be banished from a Christian celebration. As an example, I recall seeing a statuette of a kneeling Santa Claus which was intended to be added to a Creche, thereby illustrating the reason for the giving. Yours in Christ, David Cruz-Uribe, SFO