hwt@.bnr.ca (Henry Troup) (02/05/90)
In article <Jan.31.21.34.34.1990.28233@athos.rutgers.edu> meow@wpi.wpi.edu (Catherine M Darensbourg) writes: > > What are reliable books for research into demonology?... >skeptical arguements "Oh, people who were supposedly possessed in the Bible >were only victims of epilepsy/Tourette's Syndrome/(pick your favorite disease). >There's no such thing as Satan!"... >the theory of "know thy enemy", and would like help in sorting through the >inevitable hype fit only for tabloids, and the real signs of demonic/diabolical >interference in the physical world. This is a question I've been meaning to ask in this group for a while - from the other side. I don't believe in Satan, deveils, nor Hell. I'm originally Scottish Episcopalian, now Canadian Anglican (little difference). My Scottish prayerbook footnotes the creed "...He descended into Hell" as 'the place of departed spirits'. To my not very certain knowledge, there is no scriptural authority for Hell of fire and brimstone, devils with pointy tails and pitchforks, etc. "The wages of sin are death." Therefore, the unredeemed die completely and finally, while the saved have perpetual spiritual life. Gehenna is the garbage incinerator for Jerusalem. As Jews do not permit cremation, the threat of Gehenna was a horrible one - but not eternal torment. Now, for the devil theory - I think that Christianity (actually but not formally) incorporated this from Persian dualism, specifically Mithraism. But, to me, the belief in devils is one of those self serving beliefs. If 'the devil made me do it', then it wasn't my fault. How could I resist the eternal Evil One, etc. Nonsense. All the evil of the world is the result of man's misuse of his free will. Happy to debate the issue, -- Henry Troup - BNR owns but does not share my opinions ..utgpu!bnr-vpa!bnr-fos!hwt%bmerh490 or HWT@BNR.CA [Devils with pitchforks are later Christian mythology, but I think you'll find the fire and brimstone quite clear in Rev. 1 Thes seems to indicate penal suffering, though it can be read your way also. Gehenna is certainly the name of a valley that was used as a garbage dump, but the situation seems a bit more complex than that. "Originally the name of a valley west of Jerusalem, where infants were offered in sacrifice to Moloch (4 Kgdms. xxiii.10, Jer. vii.31, xix. 5f. xxxxix. 35), and which subsequently was desecrated by Josiah and used for the burning of offal, Gehenna came to be employeed as a symbolic name for the place of future judgement. [cites 1 Enoch, 4 Ezra, Aboth]" (Vincent Taylor, "The Gospel according to St. Mark", p 411) I know that it's possible to read the NT as teaching primarily that people are annihilated rather than tortured forever. But the idea of eternal punishment does have substantial NT support. My own feeling is that there is not a single, detailed description of the judgement and what happens to those who are rejected. However all NT sources do agree that we will be judged, which seems the primary point. I think we have to trust God to do the judgement in a way that is consistent with his nature as a loving God. --clh]
nathans@eleazar.dartmouth.edu (Nathan Shafer) (02/07/90)
In article <Feb.5.04.22.45.1990.26039@athos.rutgers.edu> hwt@.bnr.ca (Henry Troup) writes: >This is a question I've been meaning to ask in this group for a while - from >the other side. I don't believe in Satan, deveils, nor Hell. >I'm originally Scottish Episcopalian, now Canadian Anglican (little difference). >My Scottish prayerbook footnotes the creed >"...He descended into Hell" as 'the place of departed spirits'. >To my not very certain knowledge, there is no scriptural authority for >Hell of fire and brimstone, devils with pointy tails and pitchforks, etc. >"The wages of sin are death." Therefore, the unredeemed die completely >and finally, while the saved have perpetual spiritual life. There are other Biblical descriptions of what happens to unsaved souls. One compares the world to a field of wheat, in which believers are like wheat to be gathered, while unbelievers are like weeds, which are to be tied in bundles and burned. (Matt. 13:24-29) As Jesus explains the parable, he describes the weeds: "The Son of Man will send out his angels, and they will weed out of his kingdom everything that causes sin and all who do evil. They will throw them into the fiery furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth." (Matt. 13:40-41) Thiks image ("weeping and gnashing of teeth") is used again in another parable in this chapter. In John, Jesus describes himself as a vine, and believers as branches on the vine: "I am the vine; you are the branches. If a man remains in me and I in him, he will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing. If anyone does not remain in me, he is like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned." (John 15:5-6) John the Baptist, in Matthew 3, uses the image of burning unfruitful branches and the chaff of the wheat. It would seem, then, that the idea of sinners "burning in Hell" is quite Biblical. You state that the unredeemed die completely, yet when some- thing is burned, even if it is burned completely, isn't there a remnant of some kind? Consider such a soul as a piece of wood: if you burn the wood, when you are done, clearly it is no longer wood, but it is still something, namely ash. That is what I believe happens to a soul cut off completely from God. (The idea is not original; I got it from C.S. Lewis, but I can't remember which essay. >Now, for the devil theory - I think that Christianity (actually but not >formally) incorporated this from Persian dualism, specifically Mithraism. Not so, the Devil has been a "character" in Judaism from long ago: read the book of Job, which was likely written very early, almost definite- ly before the first or second century B.C., and quite possibly a millenium before that. >But, to me, the belief in devils is one of those self serving beliefs. >If 'the devil made me do it', then it wasn't my fault. How could I resist >the eternal Evil One, etc. Nonsense. All the evil of the world is the >result of man's misuse of his free will. Well, not really. If there's any problem in the story a devil who was "pasted in" might have solved, it's the initial origin of sin: if Adam and Eve were perfect, whence came the idea to sin in the first place?" Solution: a bigger Actor than these guys, whose motivation to sin could have been simple pride, whom we know as Lucifer. As for this character being an excuse for individual sin, that just doesn't cut it, since, despite a belief in the Devil, Christianity still places an emphasis on responsibility for not just actions, but inclinations as well. (see the Sermon on the Mount) (this, by the way, does not include those who have received grace. In their case, it doesn't matter where they got the idea, since the sin, once confessed and repented, is erased.) >Happy to debate the issue, Glad to oblige. Nathan Shafer Dartmouth College
murphy@mips.com (Mike Murphy) (02/07/90)
In answer to the original question of books on demonology, a couple of fictional novels come to mind (despite being fictional they are thought-provoking): "Screwtape Letters", by C.S. Lewis "This Present Darkness", by Frank Perelli Another interesting book, this time from a psychologist's perspective, is "People Of The Lie", by Scott Peck None of these are rigorous Biblical studies, but they are interesting reading. In answer to Henry Troup's question of why believe in the Devil, I think one of the issues to be considered is that Jesus (and the Biblical writers) apparently believed in them. I don't have a concordance handy, but in at least two instances Jesus even mentioned the devil as being supposedly true: Matt 13:36-43, John 8:43-44. There is also the temptation of Jesus by the devil in the wilderness. Not only that, but Jesus apparently believed in demon-possession, e.g. Luke 8:26-39. In fact, when you read the gospels, there is a lot of supernatural stuff (demons, angels, healings, miracles) that sounds foreign to our modern minds. So how do we explain that? If we assume that the gospels are basically accurate (not necessarily inerrant but not fiction either), then either the writers were naively wrong, using the supernatural to explain what was really natural phenomenon that they could not understand, or they were actually right and we've become blinded to a broader spiritual reality. Or perhaps there is some middle ground here? I think the problem with suggesting that the Biblical writers were misguided is that it also indicts Jesus as being wrong. I agree that there are a lot of details about demons and such that we don't understand and are open to dispute, but (for me) I feel convinced of their existence, and am curious about what reasons there are for not believing in them (other than the fact that such supernatural stuff is weird and uncomfortable, which I sympathize with but am not convinced by). -- Mike Murphy -- UUCP: sun!decwrl!mips!murphy
avo@icad.com (Alex Orlovsky) (02/07/90)
In article <Jan.31.21.34.34.1990.28233@athos.rutgers.edu> meow@wpi.wpi.edu (Catherine M Darensbourg) writes: > > What are reliable books for research into demonology?... > >the theory of "know thy enemy", and would like help in sorting through the >inevitable hype fit only for tabloids, and the real signs of demonic/diabolical >interference in the physical world. > Two references: one old, one fairly new. 1.) The Life of St. Anthony by St. Athanasius. This brief book describes the struggles of a desert ascetic in his quest for perfection and some of the demonic experiences he had along the way. The book is over 1500 years old, so one can't seriously maintain that demons are an invention of the Middle Ages. 2.) Orthodoxy and the Religion of the Future by Fr. Seraphim Rose. This book is a provocative analysis of many trends in modern life, from UFO's to Jonestown to Ecumenism (!), from the standpoint of a contemporary, conservative Orthodox Christian standpoint. For example, the UFO section claims that the confusion and ultimate pointlessness of most close encounters strongly suggest a demonic agency.
st0o+@andrew.cmu.edu (Steven Timm) (02/09/90)
Adding to Henry Troup's comments about hell >Gehenna is the garbage incinerator for Jerusalem. As Jews do not permit >cremation, the threat of Gehenna was a horrible one - but not eternal >torment. Right on. The text "It is better to enter into life maimed than to be cast into hell (Gehenna) where their worm dieth not, and their fire is not quenched." is one of the major texts used to support a currently and constantly burning hell. But the word "worm" really does mean worm. Anyone who was cast into the Jewish Gehenna was already dead. It's the worms which were in the garbage pile which never died out. But Troup ignores Revelation 20 where "the devil who deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone...and whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire." If this event is to occur after the millenium (which most people at least agree is not over yet, even if they disagree on when it may have started or will start) this clearly points to a hell which is yet to come. It also points to a hell which will kill--not sustain folks alive indefinitely.
cms@gatech.edu (02/09/90)
On the topic of Satan, demons, and devils, and whether they exist, I'd like to make a brief remark about what a satan really is. Satan is the prosecuting attorney, the angel who accuses Man before God. Remember, Judaism is a religion based on the Law of God. Satan is Man's accuser; Jesus Christ once said to Peter, "Get away from me, satan," because he felt Peter was "accusing" him. Satan, capitalized, is the figure in Job; Satan, making his rounds about the Earth, came across Job, went before God, and accused Job before God. Then came the bet, etc. Satan was not originally thought of as an evil figure, per se. Hamilton Burger, you may recall from the Perry Mason series, was always the guy we were hoping would fail; we cheered Perry Mason on, he who declared the innocence of his client. Hamilton Burger had many redeeming characteristics; he believed in what he was doing, he always behaved ethically, and he generally lost graciously. Admittedly, Satan lost many of his redeeming qualities as time progressed. As the chief accuser of man, he lost his sense of ethics in that he saw only the evil in man and none of the good in man. "You think Man worships you for free?" is essentially the question he asked God about Job (Man). In the end, Job repents his attitude concerning human suffering; before, he had thought that Man suffered because of sin; now he understood that Man suffered for reasons that had nothing to do with sin but for reasons that were known and fully appreciated only by God. Jesus Christ is the fullest expression of this belief. By New Testament times, Satan was identified as a person. Satan, it must be understood, is not the personification of evil; Satan is the person/angel who accuses man of evil. Satan does not and cannot understand the forgiveness of God; Satan understands only punishment for sin. The power of the Cross is forgiveness of sin in the complete embrace of all human suffering. The chief triumph of Christianity is that it turned the Cross into the symbol of all that is grandest and most sacred. When Christ died upon the Cross, he shouted the rallying cry of the early Christian community, the greatest cry of triumph uttered before or since: "It is accomplished! Father, into your hands I commend my spirit!" The death of Christ accomplished for us what Satan could neither understand nor believe: Complete forgiveness in terms of love and not necessarily in terms of punishment (punishment sometimes involves love, but let's not get into that now). An interesting analogy comes to mind: In the movie "Inherit the Wind," when the teacher is found guilty, the judge orders a fine "of one hundred dollars." The defense attorney declared that he would appeal the verdict even if the fine had only been "one dollar." Satan would be astounded. Humans give light punishments after finding people guilty of terrible crimes (I'm not arguing the morality of the verdict; I'm glad it was overturned); humans appeal light punishments on grounds of principle. The essence of human morality seems to be beyond Satan's comprehension. I'm not privy to Satan's thoughts (+), however, sometimes I think Satan finds humans less comprehensible than the God who, for reasons unfathomable to him, continues to forgive those wretched humans he went to all the effort of finding guilty beyond the shadow of a doubt. Sincerely, gatech!ncsatl!smith_c
cbz@cbnewsm.ATT.COM (craig.b.ziemer) (02/09/90)
In article <Jan.31.21.34.34.1990.28233@athos.rutgers.edu>, meow@wpi.wpi.edu (Catherine M Darensbourg) writes: > > What are reliable books for research into demonology? I am extremely My wife recently completed a course entitled Spiritual Warfare at Lancaster Bible College. The professor was a pastor who has studied and counseled demon-possessed people for many years. He highly recommended the following books: 1) The Adversary by Mark Bubeck 2) Satan's Underground by Lauren Stratford 3) Money, Power & Sex by Richard J. Foster 4) Demon Possession by John Warwick Montgomery 5) People of the Lie by Scott M. Peck 6) Satanism in America by Duane, Ted and Empey Schwarz 7) The Christian and the Occult by Roger Palms My wife read the first two and found them to be informative, eye-opening, depressing, uplifting. She highly recommends them to you. Also, we recommend anything by Mike Warnke. Mike is a former high priest in the Church of Satan. He is now a christian comedian, writer and lecturer. He has a powerful testimony. If you need any more info concerning these books or this issue, let me know. Your desire to learn more about Satan and his demons is a very good idea. Most people do not realize what we're up against. * Craig B. Ziemer %% DISCLAIMER: AT&T does not * * AT&T Bell Laboratories %%%%%% officially support what I * * Reading, Pennsylvania %% just said, in fact, they * * UUCP ADDRESS: alux6!cbz %% rarely do :^) *
userPUB1@mts.ucs.UAlberta.CA (Scott Advani) (02/09/90)
In article <Feb.5.04.22.45.1990.26039@athos.rutgers.edu>, hwt@.bnr.ca (Henry Tro > >This is a question I've been meaning to ask in this group for a while - from >the other side. I don't believe in Satan, deveils, nor Hell. > >I'm originally Scottish Episcopalian, now Canadian Anglican (little difference) This is something that has interested me, too, since I trusted in Jesus Christ and became a Christian. The Bible does talk about Satan rather often (should Satan be capitalized - did that become his name after he fell? He was Lucifer before...). If you believe in the God of the Bible, then whether you like it or not, angels, Satan, and his demons are part and parcel of the whole package. These demons are a good explanation of many of these psychic "new age" things that people do and experience - out of body experiences, channeling, ouija boards, seances, etc. When you deal with this dangerous, and darker side to the Christian experience, you are not dealing with what you might think you are. Take seances, for example. When the medium makes "contact", if the Bible is true, he or she is not in contact with the person, but with a demon who knew that person (if the medium is not a fake). Ghosts and hauntings, by the way, are similar experiences, only the demon is manifesting itself in a different way. Now, why do I believe this? I'm glad to say I've never personally experienced a demonic presence with the clarity of one of the above examples, but the recently deceased Dr. Walter Martin had the experience of exorcising demons on a number of occasions. One of the possessions involved a ten-year-old boy who had been possessed by TEN demons when his CHRISTIAN mother took him to a seance! (of all the stupid...) He had been possessed during the seance at the age of eight, I believe. As a result, he began to frighten his mother and the neighbors in his neighborhood. He'd pronounce curses on people, and they would happen. When Dr. Martin prayed over the boy, he asked God that if there was anything bothering this boy, if it were His will, would He help the boy? When Dr. Martin (and others) laid hands on the boy, (who was sitting in a chair) the boy suddenly slithered from the chair onto the floor face down. When he rolled over, his face had contorted into something inhuman (according to his description). His tounge was flat on the bottom of his mouth, his mouth was open, and his lips didn't move, but a DEEP voice screamed, "Leave US alone! You puny human, we will DESTROY you!" The boy began to struggle, and Dr. Martin tried to hold him down. Now, think about this. If you've ever seen a picture of Dr. Martin, he was a big person - about 180 lbs. This 10 year old almost lifted him off the ground! It took all of Dr. Martin's strength to hold the boys arms on the ground. Three hours later, ten demons had been cast out, in the name of Jesus Christ. Dr. Martin, by the way, was not the only witness to this - there were three other people in the room besides the boy, his mother, and Dr. Martin. There are other experiences that Dr. Martin relates. The point is that demons are real. When you play with things like ouija boards, horoscopes, tarot cards, seances, channeling, crystal balls, crystals, etc. etc. etc. you are opening a door to the invisible world, and you have no control over what comes out. Thank God that Jesus Christ protects us from this, and delegates His authority to us. BTW, this doesn't mean that every case of something bad happening is the result of possession. It's usually the last on the list of things that could be wrong. But, don't get caught in the lie that Satan spreads, "I don't exist." A thief does much better work when you don't think he's there. In Christ, -= Scott Advani =- ----------------- "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God." - John 1:1
crf@ginger.princeton.edu (Charles Ferenbaugh) (02/12/90)
In article <Feb.7.03.20.05.1990.18189@athos.rutgers.edu> murphy@mips.com (Mike Murphy) writes: > >...In fact, when you read the gospels, there is a lot of supernatural stuff >(demons, angels, healings, miracles) that sounds foreign to our modern minds. >So how do we explain that? If we assume that the gospels are basically >accurate (not necessarily inerrant but not fiction either), then either >the writers were naively wrong, using the supernatural to explain what >was really natural phenomenon that they could not understand, or they were >actually right and we've become blinded to a broader spiritual reality. I'd argue for the latter case, personally: that all of the 'supernatural stuff' has been real all along, and we're just blinded to it today. A good explanation of this can be found in Lewis' _Screwtape Letters_. It goes something like this: in Jesus' time, belief in demons and miracles was common enough that the demons didn't lose anything by working openly. In our day and age, however, there is a materialistic mindset in our culture which says, there is a natural explanation for everything. So, given this, Satan's strategy is to work undercover, so to speak; if you are convinced that your adversary doesn't exist, why should he do anything to change your mind? Another observation which supports this view: I have it on good authority from missionaries to other parts of the world, where beliefs in demonic forces are more common, that the sorts of demon possession, miraculous healings, etc. described in the New Testament, are still happening today. Grace and peace, Charles Ferenbaugh
hwt@.bnr.ca (Henry Troup) (02/12/90)
from: <RCAPENER@CC.UTAH.EDU> (NETNORTH)
X-Envelope-to: hwt@bnr.CA
Sent to me for posting/sending to moderator:
Mr. Troup:
I understand your feeling of skepticism about devils, etc., but
it's just too easy to attempt to throw it all out by saying it came from
Persian mythology.
I cannot assure you of their existence by saying that I have con-
versed with one. I can however refer you to a cousin of mine in Costa
Rica, who is often involved in exorcisms. Please don't sneer and suggest
that because I haven't personally spoken with one, that others have not
or that I'm just saying that because Rita is my cousin, etc. Rita has
authored a book about her experiences, but right now it is only available
in Spanish. She's getting it translated into English, but I don't know
when it will be available. I can get you the title, if you like. It
slips my mind right now, though.
As for your other question about hellfire and brimstone. I've
checked and there doesn't seem to be much specific reference to open
flames in Hell except for the NT parable Jesus told, where Lazarus is
asked for a drop of water to cool the burning (in Hell) man's tounge.
Lazarus can't do him any favors, and when the man wishes to return to
earth to warn his brethren, he is reminded that they've had plenty of
warning and a dead man won't sway them. This parable seems to me to
have been used as an example by repentence preachers, which got out of hand.
Pointy-eared and -tailed devils are of course artists conceptions.
And the media have taken this and mocked Christianity because the lil'
fellows were just too "cute" not to caricature (sp?).
What the Bible refers to as Hell is the gnawing knowledge that
the sinner is eternally (think about how long that is!) separated from
God's goodness. It's terrible spiritual burning ache - a void which
cannot ever be filled for the sinner. The only thing in this life which
can approach that feeling is losing an *extremely* close family member
or friend. This is especially hard to handle for the atheist, because
s/he believes s/he will *never* see that person again. The Christian
realizes that although the hurt is there, if the friend/relative was a
Christian, then they be reunited someday.
As I said, if you can imagine what it would be like to live
without *any* joy *whatever* in your life, you will get an idea of
what Biblical Hell is referring to.
(I don't know who to send this to to post it, since the group is
moderated. Please do me a favor and post it to the net. Thank you!)
-Tim Hoogasian at rcapener@cc.utah.edu
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#define DISCLAIMER "The views expressed blah, blah, blah..."
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--
Henry Troup - BNR owns but does not share my opinions
..utgpu!bnr-vpa!bnr-fos!hwt%bmerh490 or HWT@BNR.CA