@sun.acs.udel.edu:stabosz@sun.acs.udel.edu (stabosz) (02/09/90)
In article <Jan.31.21.36.26.1990.28266@athos.rutgers.edu> jons@oscsunb.osc.edu (Jon Steinbach (ST)) writes: > > p.s. I would appreciate it if anyone out there could explain what > Purgatory (sp ?) is. ******** I'm going to try an explanation, rather than a history of the idea, of Purgatory. There are only a couple of Biblical references that Catholics draw on for this. One is in Macabbees (I don't have it right at hand) where it is mentioned that it is good to pray for the dead. One is in St. Paul, I believe. As I understand it, the early Church did pray for its dead, and the somewhat baroque notions of Purgatory that evolved in the High Middle Ages took that tradition as the basis for a weird bartering scheme ("as soon as the coin in the coffer rings, the soul from Purgatory springs.") As I understand Purgatory now, it relates somewhat directly to the questions posed earlier here about "can a terrible sinner repent at the last moment of life and be saved?" The answer to that is obviously yes, as most people pointed out. But, existentially, what happens in one's life when one goes from sin to grace? Part of the process involves knowledge of the real harm that one's sin has done, to oneself and to others. Sometimes that knowledge is horrible. This is true even when the sinful action was not fully known to be sinful - and, in Catholic theology, a sinful act must be known to be sinful in order for there to be guilt. But in and of themselves, objectively sinful acts do harm in the world. Concrete (and painful) example. When I was much younger, and my sister was younger still, I helped her get birth control pills. This was while she was still in high school. I thought that because she was "in love" with her young man, this was a good act on my part. (This was before I became an adult Catholic - or, rather, while I was "between" the times of practicing my faith.) The results were disastrous. She became sexually active, the "romance" died as a direct result of the sexual acts, she was hurt terribly. And my act was a contributing factor. It wasn't until much later, when I was back practicing my faith, and thinking back to the years I had spent away from God, that I realized the full import of what I had done. The very real harm I had caused. When I realized this, I was completely grief-stricken. I cried and cried for hours one afternoon, so sorry for how I had entered her life in such a harmful way. Later I did what I could to make it up, and I still do not consider that she is over the effects of my act. That experience I believe to be the experience of Purgatory. One doesn't just "jump" into salvation and heaven, as if the act of salvation changes one instantly into a loving person. One learns to love, and part of that process is learning the effects of not loving. So Purgatory is the experience of, after death, when we are no longer bound by time and space, experiencing the sometimes painful growth that all us sinners go through as we grow in love towards God. I personally want to do all my purgatory on earth. I aspire to be a saint - in the Catholic sense: not just someone who attains salvation, as Paul uses the word "saints" in his epistles, but someone in whom God can break through for good in this world "as with the saints of old". St. Rae - my friends around the U. of D. know I hope to be canonized Patron Saint of Sex. God knows we need one in these times..... -- Rae D. Stabosz University of Delaware
ctdonath@rodan.acs.syr.edu (Carl T. Donath) (02/12/90)
What little study I have done on purgatory (I am Protestant) indicates that there is no such place. The only mention of it is apparently in the books of the Apocrypha which is generally rejected by non-Catholics (please, no flame war on this for now). I searched specifically for the "it is good to pray for the dead" quote without success. Instead, there is much indicating that death leads to heaven or hell - no middleground. I can search for more specific references if you want.... Remember Jesus' parable of the wedding feast where outsiders were brought in to participate. When one was found to be unworthy to be there (no wedding clothes), he was bound and thrown outsides "to where there is weeping and gnashing of teeth", i.e. he was given sufficient opportunity to prepare (repent), but when he did not, and the last chance passed by, no further opportunity was given. [As a Protestant, my tradition is also against both Purgatory and prayers for the dead. I'm not going to comment on Purgatory here. But prohibiting prayers for the dead seems to me to be unjustifiable, and in some cases amazingly inhumane. After a loved one has died, we are naturally concerned about them. We are told to bring all of our concerns to God in prayer. Praying for loved ones seems an obviously Christian response. We are told in Protestant tradition that those who have died in in God's hands, and do not need our prayers. But people who are alive are in God's hands as well. Prayer serves many purposes, and praying for someone who has died need not indicate any lack of faith in God's dealing with them. --clh]
avo@icad.com (Alex Orlovsky) (02/22/90)
In article <Feb.18.13.15.08.1990.13263@athos.rutgers.edu>, Mac Horton writes: > >rejected by Protestants, so that's why you didn't find it. By the way, >I believe the Orthodox accept these books -- I'd appreciate correction >if I'm mistaken. > > As a point of information, we Catholics don't refer to them as >"Apocrypha"; for us they are simply Scripture, not different from any >other books of the Bible. The Roman Catholic and Orthodox have almost the same definition of the OT canon. We also agree that the name "Apocrypha" is not appropriate. The fathers of the Church applied this term to writings which, for one reason or another, would cause the faithful to stumble. The term recommended nowadays by RC and Orth. alike is "Deuterocanonical." The broad (49 book) and narrow (39 book) OT canons are also referred to as Alexandrian and Palestinian, although these names suggest a rigid a line of geographic demarcation which may not have existed. In the early Church there was a lot of debate about the OT canon. That famous son of Alexandria St. Athanasius maintained that the narrow canon was Scriptural, but at the same time his own writings are peppered with quotations or allusions to the other ten books. He may not have considered them to be Scripture, but he clearly believed that they could help confirm the faith, which is *not* the case with apocryphal literature. Modern Orthodox liturgical practice uses Deuterocanonical elements. In Matins on Holy Saturday, for instance, we sing the Song of the Three Holy Youths in its entirety. When done in canonarch style, it is unsurpassed for encouraging congregational singing. >Purgatory is believed to be a temporary place/condition. > Before I step down from the soap box, let me add a few remarks on Purgatory. In the Orthodox Church there is disagreement on some aspects of what happens after death. While some Orthodox espouse a purgatory-like stage and others vociferously denounce any thing that smacks of Purgatory, most are very reluctant to make dogmatic pronouncements on a subject about which precious little is known and is frankly not an essential aspect of the Faith. The Orthodox do, however, pray for the dead, at every service as a matter of fact. Christ triumphed over death, thus the dead in Christ are still very much members of his Church. If it makes sense to pray for anyone, then it doesn't matter whether that person is dead or alive. The same eternal God hears. "Praise ye the Lord and supremely exalt him, unto the ages." Song of the Three Holy Youths