TTAERUM@ualtavm.bitnet (02/05/90)
I thought the discussion on wine/graph juice was quite interesting. Much of our present argument about whether or not Jesus drank wine comes from people who have fridges and get their grape juice from Safeway. In a climate which is hot, there is no such thing as grape juice which does not (and is not) naturally fermenting. In fact, if the grape juice does not ferment, the only thing that can happen is the juice will go bad (become foul tasting). The notion that Jesus only drank grape juice, therefore, borders on the miraculous. The notion of Jesus being a wine-bibber probably stems from questions about his parentage (most notably whether Joseph was his real father - which even Joseph would agree was not the case). There is the notion within 'generation theology' (ravens give birth to ravens, good people give birth to good people, ...) that the product of an adulterous relationship will be adulterous (loose living, imbibing ...). There are other quasi-slanderous comments made about Jesus in the Gospels which are couched in phrases related to questions about who his father is. Jesus responds, of course, that G-d is his father. Terry Taerum
rona@hpdml93.hp.com (Ron Abramson) (02/05/90)
/ hpdml93:soc.religion.christian / christian@athos.rutgers.edu.SDE.HP.COM / 10:11 pm Jan 29, 1990 / writes: --- much deleted ---- > In my opinion, it is not a defamation of Jesus's character to say that >he drank wine. I attended an interesting Baptist celebration of Mass >(or whatever Protestants call the celebration; I think they consider >the Lord's Supper to be a valid phrase, not Mass). They passed around >little plastic cups filled with the Blood of Christ. When the time >came to consume it, I can't tell you how *shocked* I was to discover >it was grape juice. I asked my mother-in-law if they'd run out of >wine and substituted at the last minute a reasonable alternative to >wine for the unusual occasion. I knew very little of Protestants at >that time. I appreciate your belief that Christ never consumed wine, >however, I have difficulty believing that during the Passover meal, for >example, Our Lord consumed grape juice. As far as drinking grape juice for communion goes, our church has a much more practical reason. Many reformed alchoholics cannot have even a sip of alchohol. Also, many parents would not want their child- ren to have an ounce of wine (even if it was legal (?)). Regards, Ron Abramson phone: (208) 323-4293 email: rona@hpdml92.HP.COM uucp: hplabs!hpdml92!rona
moy@acf4.nyu.edu (Gloria Moy) (02/07/90)
The Bible in the New Testament makes references to not being drunk with wine (See Galatians 5 and Ephesians 5) As a recovering alcohlic, being able to take communion requires that grape juice is used to symbolize the blood of Christ rather than wine. I went to a different church yesterday and took communion and i was concerned with what the church used for communion. Thank God that in fact is was grape juice and not wine.
harry@atmos.washington.edu (Harry Edmon) (02/07/90)
I believe that LCMS (Lutheran Church - Missouri Synod) doctrine does allow for the substitution of grape juice for wine in certain limited circumstances. In my LCMS congregation we usually have a few individual cups of grape juice for those members who are taking medication that requires them to avoid alcohol and those who have expressed a desire to avoid alcohol of any kind. The way I understand Lutheran doctrine, wine should be used when possible because that is what was used at the Last Supper. However, the important part of the sacrement is faith in the words "given and shed for you for the forgiveness of your sins" (see Luther's small catechism). -- Harry Edmon INTERNET: harry@atmos.washington.edu (206) 543-0547 UUCP: uw-beaver!atmos.washington.edu!harry Dept of Atmospheric Sciences, AK-40 University of Washington
bob@morningstar.com (Bob Sutterfield) (02/09/90)
In article <Jan.30.00.11.02.1990.16019@athos.rutgers.edu> dragon!cms@gatech.edu writes:
At any rate, it seems obvious that Christ did drink wine and did
not regard it as sinful in and of itself.
Agreed. I see no condemnation of alcohol, except to excess.
I respect your right to drink grape juice and I sincerely hope
you'll show me the same courtesy by respecting my right to drink
wine.
Agreed.
Besides, it isn't either wine or grapejuice anyway: It's the Blood
of Christ.
...or, for non-Catholics, a facsimile thereof.
I know some Protestants serve grape juice, but not all. Do you
happen to know which Protestants Churches subscribe to your
interpretation?
Some denominations insist upon grape juice (Baptists come to mind),
others insist upon wine (some Lutherans), others (as far as I can
tell) leave it up to individual congregations. Our fellowship, a
collection of several dozen house churches, leaves the decision to the
individual house churches. Different ones are planted in different
subcultures around the city, and need to adopt different strategies
for their particular situations. Our particular house church? We
pass around a few glasses of a nice Burgundy, along with several
pieces of pita bread. Very casual, lots of shared prayer and good
fellowship.
Wine is known to remove a lot of our resistance to the various
temptations that sin offers. No one of us had better dare
believe that he is immune to its mind numbing and sin
uninhibiting effects.
Right. Each of us is responsible for maintaining his own vessel as a
good steward, which includes knowing when to say "enough."
Why should I voluntarily engage in an activity which I know to
be dangerous, which the Scriptures do not command, and which the
Scriptures in fact warn against.
The Scriptures do command cultural relevance (in the world but not of
it). In some cultures (e.g. modern USA) alcohol is accepted. I have
done some useful evangelism and post-evangelism in (gasp) bars! Some
of the people I encounter are most comfortable talking over a beer.
In fact, the fact that I drink a beer with them often graphically
demonstrates, emphasizes, and begins a discussion on God's
non-exclusive grace. I can point out that God is more concerned with
man's heart than with outward action. Blanket prohibition of alcohol
focuses on externals, but responsible, moderate consumption can be
culturally relevant and useful.
In fact, just last night, the men in my small-group Bible study took
me out and treated me to some very nice beer in celebration of the
announcement that my wife is pregnant with our first child. It was a
wonderful time of fellowship, and I treasure their support. That's
the culture we live in, and that's how we express it for each other.
At any rate, I maintain that wine is just as often held at a
premium in the Bible... Sirach 39:26... Ben Sira 40:20...
Sorry, I can't find those references in my Bible :-)
Seriously, which non-Christian groups view Christians as "doing
something imperfect" when consuming alchohol even in the Eucharist?
Missionaries in Muslim areas are strongly cautioned against drinking
alcohol. Though rank-and-file Muslims often drink (sometimes
heavily), the missionary in their culture is taking the position of an
imam - a `holy man.' Behavior that is considered inappropriate for
Muslim holy men must be avoided. It's all a matter of culture and
strategy. I drink here, I won't drink there. No big deal.TTAERUM@ualtavm.bitnet (02/12/90)
In article <Feb.5.04.04.31.1990.25377@athos.rutgers.edu>, TTAERUM@ualtavm.bitnet >The notion of Jesus being a wine-bibber probably stems from >questions about his parentage (most notably whether Joseph was his >real father - which even Joseph would agree was not the case). There >is the notion within 'generation theology' (ravens give birth to ravens, >good people give birth to good people, ...) that the product of an >adulterous relationship will be adulterous (loose living, imbibing ...). >There are other quasi-slanderous comments made about Jesus in the >Gospels which are couched in phrases related to questions about who >his father is. Jesus responds, of course, that G-d is his father. > >Terry Taerum I received a number of inquiries concerning my interpretation of Jesus as a wine-bibber. Interestingly enough, everyone seemed to know what 'generation theology' was and what I meant by 'quasi-slanderous'. In case someone didn't know, 'generation theology' comes from the Biblical expression "these are the generation of ...". What I meant by 'quasi-slanderous' will soon become apparent. These best example of this 'quasi-slanderous' comment can be found in John 8:48 where some ask Jesus, "Aren't we right in saying that you are a Samaritan and demon-possessed?" The question about whether Jesus is a Samaritan is loaded. The Samaritans were the people left behind during the exile who married non-Jews. We know Mary is a direct descendant of David from Matthew and we know Joseph is a direct descendant of David from Luke (some will argue it is the other way around - it has no bearing on the argument) but what about Jesus. He is accused (in questioning) of being a Samaritan which can only be by intermarriage with a non-Jew or a Samaritan. Nothing much in this example is left to the imagination. Jesus response is ultimately, "before Abraham was, I am". Again Jesus claims to be of the same 'kind' as G-d and the people attempt to stone him. Again, nothing much is left to the imagination. Other examples are more subtle but this should be sufficient, I think, to demonstrate what I meant. Terry Taerum
dtate@unix.cis.pitt.edu (David M Tate) (02/22/90)
In article <Feb.18.12.30.37.1990.12780@athos.rutgers.edu> @sun.acs.udel.edu:turtles@sun.acs.udel.edu (turtles) writes: > > [...] Is alcohol >good or evil? > No. Alcohol is neither good nor evil. Bullets are neither good nor evil. Lead pipes, printing presses, movie cameras, poppies, any other non-sentient thing you can name--it's neither good nor evil. All things are from God. They can be used according to their true purposes (that would be good), or they can be misused and perverted to other ends (that would be evil). Fermented beverages are no exception. The previous discussion on this makes this quite clear, although no one seems to have drawn the obvious conclusion. The bible speaks of God giving wine to man to make him glad, and also speaks of drunkenness as abhorrent to God. Where's the contradiction? Wine has a purpose, which is to quench thirst, relax, and please the palate of the drinker. Wine can also be abused, though, by drinking to excess. To say that wine is evil is silly; you might as well say that rope is evil because people can be hanged, or that stones are evil because people can be hit over the head with them. In Christ's time, the fashion was to take statements of the Law (e.g. "don't cook a kid in its mother's milk") and generalize them to a much broader sort of restriction (e.g. "don't mix meat and dairy products"), just to be "safe". The experts at this were the Pharisees. Let's not follow their lead and try to condemn the one who sees the balance. -- David M. Tate | "The concept of weight of evidence was central dtate@unix.cis.pitt.edu | to my first book, and occurred also in at least | 32 other publications [of mine]. What I say 33 "A Man for all Seasonings" | times is true." -- I. J. Good.
hedrick@athos.rutgers.edu (Charles Hedrick) (02/22/90)
In article <Feb.18.12.30.37.1990.12780@athos.rutgers.edu> @sun.acs.udel.edu:turtles@sun.acs.udel.edu (turtles) writes: > > >This discussion has leaned more towards the question of wine or grape juice >in communion, but I am wondering what is the general perspective of the >social drink? The Bible clearly condemns drunkenness, but should a >Christian be against the consumption of alcohol in general? Is alcohol >good or evil? > > Tony Tony, The way I look at it is this: I don't know of anything in Scripture that condems a casual drink now and then, but the Bible does remind me of my responsibilities as a Christian to others. By "others" I mean Christians and non-christians. In First Corinthians chapter 8, Paul is dealing with the subject of meat that has been sacrificed to idols. The Corinthian Christians wanted to know if it was O.K. to partake of this food. The word from the Lord (through Paul) is this: I Corinthians 8: 8-13 8 : But food will not commend us to God; we are neither the worse if we do not eat, nor the better if we do eat. 9 : But take care lest this liberty of yours somehow become a stumbling block to the weak. 10 : For if someone sees you, who have knowledge, dining in an idol's temple, will not his conscience, if he is weak, be strengthened to eat thins sacrificed to idols? 11 : For through your knowledge he who is weak is ruined, the brother for whose sake Christ died. 12 : And thus, by sinning against the brethren and wounding their conscience when it is weak, you sin against Christ. 13 : Therefore, if food causes my brother to stumble, I will never eat meat again, that I might not cause my brother to stumble. We are also warned in First thessalonians 5:22 to avoid even the appearance of evil. But as in the example above, I believe this means "perceived" evil also. If someone, who knows I am a Christian, were to see me taking a casual drink, and through this he derived that it was O.K. to drink and carried it to excess, I believe that I would have sinned because of my bad witness and its result on this person. In my opinion, why take the chance? Scott. cscountr@uokmax.uucp -- The Lord never promised it would be easy. . . In fact, He promised the opposite. Take care. [I'd like to propose the following: I think it's important for the Christian community to include both those who will not consume alcohol as a matter of principle and those who do. It's important to have a large group of people who will not in order to help establish an environment that is supportive of people who can't use alcohol safely. But it's important to have Christians who do use alcohol in order to fight the image of Christians as kill-joys, and make it clear that God is responsible for the whole variety of joyous activities just as much as he is responsible for prayer and fasting. --clh]
dls@cs.rochester.edu (Darren Swartzendruber) (02/22/90)
In article <Feb.18.12.30.37.1990.12780@athos.rutgers.edu> @sun.acs.udel.edu:turtles@sun.acs.udel.edu (turtles) writes:
This discussion has leaned more towards the question of wine or grape juice
in communion, but I am wondering what is the general perspective of the
social drink? The Bible clearly condemns drunkenness, but should a
Christian be against the consumption of alcohol in general? Is alcohol
good or evil?
Tony
I think most Christians are against what alcohol does. I am not against
alcohol, but I choose to avoid it because for a few reasons:
-my tolerance is down, now 1 drink really effects me;
-we, as Christians, are to be good witnesses. I don't want
something like alcohol to hinder me in my witness.
-I feel that when one becomes a Christian that he should
give up anything that could cause him to stumble in his walk
with the Lord. This includes alcohol, smoking, TV, games of
pleasure, etc. Of course, the list is different for each of us.
I know Christians that drink. I know Christians that smoke. The question
is: is this hindering my walk and/or witness?
These, of course, are just my opinions.rnhale@dartvax.dartmouth.edu (Robert Hale ) (02/25/90)
hinder one's relationship with God. However, the social drink is
accepted in moderation, a useful yardstick in all things.
--Rob Hale
"Tell them: Thus says the Lord of hosts, the God of Israel: Drink!
become drunk and vomit; fall, never to rise, before the sword that I
will send among you!"
--Jeremiah 25: 27
[It's not clear to me what this posting means. First, the drinking
referred to in Jer 25 is from the cup of the wine of God's wrath,
which is presumably somewhat stronger than alcohol. We're dealing
here with metaphor. Even if we weren't, becoming drunk and vomiting
is somewhat different from what what the original posting had in mind.
--clh]mmh@cs.qmw.ac.uk (03/01/90)
In article <Feb.22.04.16.19.1990.6296@athos.rutgers.edu> cci632!dls@cs.rochester.edu (Darren Swartzendruber) writes: > in communion, but I am wondering what is the general perspective of the > social drink? The Bible clearly condemns drunkenness, but should a > Christian be against the consumption of alcohol in general? Is alcohol > good or evil? Since Christ's first miracle was to turn water into wine, and the use of wine plays a fundamental part in Christian ritual I can't see how Christians can be against alcohol. Abuse of alcohol is of course another thing. The effect of drinking too much alcohol is to damage one's health. The effect of drinking a little alcohol is to remove some of one's inhibitions (the effect on me is merely that I fall asleep ...). If underneath one's inhibitions is a violent or sinful person, then that will be revealed by drinking alcohol. But I do not feel the alcohol itself causes the violence or sin. The effect on Christians of drinking a modest amount of alcohol ought to be that they become more prayerful, or ready to sing the praises of God, or something else positive, unless their Christianity is not very deep. Matthew Huntbach
moy@acf4.nyu.edu (Gloria Moy) (03/04/90)
Alcohol is not evil if it is not abused. However, if we as Christians tell people not to drink, we should not do the same. As far as using alcohol to improve one's prayer or praise to God, no way! Alcohol dulls the senses. When we prayer or give praise to God, it should be not be alcohol aided. When we pray it should be from the heart. Alcohol for me is dangerous. I can not drink safely. I also can not be honest when I am drinking.