st0o+@andrew.cmu.edu (Steven Timm) (03/01/90)
This is in response to a post on internet.christia by PDBROYLE, but is also appropriate to the current discussion thread on netnews.soc.religion.christian. >Which makes me think. Could it be that fermenting process was only known >about since, as you say, the 1600's, but that wine before that day could >be either fermented or unfermented? Could it be that nobody knew why some >wine was gave you a high while another did not? Could it be that, both >people are right when they speak of anceint wine? IE, Wine was what we >understand to be grapejuice, but that sometimes it fermented into what we >know to be wine? Just a thought? I think it is safe to say that people knew the difference from antiquity. The Old Testament Hebrew has two different words both translated as "wine" in the KJV and most other versions. One refers to unfermented grape juice and the other to fermented wine. Fermented wine has been known at least since the days of Noah, whom we read in Genesis was drunk. It is this word used in the Old Testament in such verses as "Wine is a mocker, strong drink is raging" "It is not for kings to drink wine" On the other hand, when wine is praised as that "which gladdeneth both God and man." the word for unfermented grape juice is used. The strongest objection to this theory is that it is commonly assumed that it was impossible to preserve grape juice in Biblical times. I give three short arguments here as to its feasibility. (a) Grapes were in season at various times during the year, and the juice could be prepared fresh as needed (and often was) (b) Sources indicate that the freshly-squeezed must was often boiled down and stored for months at a time without fermentation,. Grape juice could also be and was preserved by sealing with various sealants or by immersion in underground springs. (c) The same difficulties which plagued grape juice storage would also plague the storage of wine . In fact, it was not until the 1800s that Pasteur did his study on why some grape juice underwent alcoholic fermentation and other juice underwent the undesirable lactic acid fermentation. Most of this information comes from the book Wine in the Bible, by Dr. Samuele Bacchiocchi. I'm in the process of reading it and plan soon to post another synopsis of wine in the New Testament (where the situation is not so linguistically or practically clear.)
mls@cbnewsm.ATT.COM (mike.siemon) (03/04/90)
Stephen Timm is suffering from some misconceptions about wine in the ancient (or modern) world. He writes: > when wine is praised as that "which gladdeneth both God and man" > the word for unfermented grape juice is used. I'm afraid that counts as assuming what you want to prove, not a tactic that recommends itself when the matter is in dispute. Stephen cites Samuele Bacchiocchi, a 7th Day Adventist writer whom I have encountered before in sabbatarian controversy. Dr. Bacchiocchi is honest -- but totally unable to weigh his data independently of doctrine. I fear that will be the case here, too; but I will see if I can dig this book up and scan through it. There is at any rate *some* misinformation in the three points Stephen goes on to use to buttress his argument: > (a) Grapes were in season at various times during the year, and the > juice could be prepared fresh as needed (and often was) This is simply wrong. Grapes will have matured a bit differently in the different climates of the Near East, but in any given climate the ripening will be subject to only "microclimatic" variation of days or weeks at most. > (b) Sources indicate that the freshly-squeezed must was often boiled > down and stored for months at a time without fermentation This is at least theoretically possible -- raise the sugar content high enough and you get a syrup inhospitable to yeast. I assume Bacchiocchi found some obscure mentions of this. For this to be relevant to the issue, there would have to be documentary or archaeological evidence that such a technique was in *common* practice in ancient Palestine. Here is where I *would* like to see the references. But *please* note that unless this syrup is treated as a reserve for dilution immediately before serving it will, on dilution again, become an attractive medium for yeast growth and fermentation -- so don't keep it around for more than a day or so or you'll have wine. For all I know, the ancients liked yeasty "new" wine so much that they kept syrup around all year in order to make up a batch of week-old wine on command. Note that modern grape growers freeze a portion of their crop to sell to amateur wine-makers (the one batch of wine I've made was done from frozen grapes; grape syrup would have been a practical way of doing the same thing in the ancient world. New wine bubbling with the CO2 evolved by the yeast would have been an ancient "bubbly" and quite possibly a highly desirable drink and the subject of verbal differentiation from older -- and more alcoholic -- still wine. Mature wine was commonly diluted in ancient practice, maybe to get it down to the alcohol content of beer or of incompletely fermented "new" wine. Consider the "yuppies" of David's or Solomon's courts! Yeasts are omnipresent in human environments (note that even in our very scrubbed and antiseptic America, yeast infections are very common ailments). A bread making culture (like Palestine) *certainly* had yeast everywhere in sufficient quantity and of a variety adapted to anaerobic fermentation of sugar to alcohol and carbon dioxide. If you press grapes today and let them sit, they will start fermenting into wine within a day or two. Wine makers (and beer makers and bread makers ...) use packaged yeasts for a couple of reasons a. predictablility of results; this is the main point. b. dominating the cultures with a specially desired strain that is adapted to the purpose (wine makers like to use yeasts that come from Bordeaux or Burgundy, for some odd reason :-)), has some highly specific "taste" as side effect from the basic reaction. > Grape juice could also be and was preserved by sealing with various > sealants or by immersion in underground springs. No. Yeast produce alcohol from sugar (in grape juice) by anaerobic reactions. Sealing grape juice will *not* prevent it from turning into wine; sealing is a treatment for preserving *already fermented wine* from turning into vinegar (which *is* an aerobic reaction). As long as yeasts are present -- and they *wil* be, they form the "bloom" on the skins of the grapes -- the juice WILL ferment to wine within a few days. This will be very frothy and yeasty and undrinkable wine by our standards, but grape juice without modern preserva- tives WILL have an appreciable alcohol content within 24 hours of its pressing. Sealing unfermented grape juice is a prescription for an explosion. Boiling the "must" (the pressed grapes, usually with skins) can drive off any alcohol and kill the yeast and concentrate the sugar to the point that a syrup is produced. As I said above, this is a matter on which I'd like to see sources. (Further oenological note; once the alcohol reaches a certain percentage, it becomes toxic to the yeasts and they die off and drop to the bottom of the fermentation vat. This is partly dependent on the strain of yeast, but with modern wine yeasts it is at about 12% alcohol by volume. Given modern tastes for dry wine, wine makers harvest their grapes so that they have just enough sugar (about 24%) to leave little or no residual sugar after this point at which the fermentation ends. If you want know more about wine, THE book to read is Amerine and Johnson _Wine, an Introduction_, U. of California Press. That title may be a bit off; in any case this is a classic book out of the eonological program at Cal. Davis.) > (c) The same difficulties which plagued grape juice storage would also > plague the storage of wine. In fact, it was not until the 1800s that > Pasteur did his study on why some grape juice underwent alcoholic > fermentation and other juice underwent the undesirable lactic acid > fermentation. Don't let the oenophiles hear you calling the malo-lactic fermentation undesirable! More seriously, you simply do not have the facts straight on what Pasteur did for the French wine industry (and why Pasteurization was developed -- hint: it had nothing to do with milk!) The problems of wine storage are in fact totally different from those of grape juice storage. Pasteurization kills organisms (bacteria, I think, but I could be misremem- bering this) that turn alcohol into vinegar. (There is another, inorganic "oxidation" reaction that can spoil wine as well.) I think it is a desperate mistake to attempt to "preserve" the Bible from the impurities of alcohol. It is a dangerous drug, and the Bible is quite ambivalent about it, for when used sparingly and spiritually it is indeed a joy to God and humanity. But as with all of creation, we can all too easily look upong the "good" and by our own greed destroy it and turn it to evil. It is the human failing that must be our spiritual focus, not a misguided attempt to project all the problem onto a simple chemical. -- Michael L. Siemon I was ready to be sought by those m.siemon@ATT.COM who did not ask for me; ...!att!sfbat!mls I was ready to be found by those standard disclaimer who did not seek me. -- Isaiah 65:1
st0o+@ANDREW.CMU.EDU (Steven Timm) (03/06/90)
Stephen Timm is suffering from some misconceptions about wine in the ancient (or modern) world. He writes: > when wine is praised as that "which gladdeneth both God and man" > the word for unfermented grape juice is used. I'm afraid that counts as assuming what you want to prove, not a tactic that recommends itself when the matter is in dispute. Stephen cites Samuele Bacchiocchi, a 7th Day Adventist writer whom I have encountered before in sabbatarian controversy. Dr. Bacchiocchi is honest -- but totally unable to weigh his data independently of doctrine. I fear that will be the case here, too; but I will see if I can dig this book up and scan through it. There is at any rate *some* misinformation in the three points Stephen goes on to use to buttress his argument: > (a) Grapes were in season at various times during the year, and the > juice could be prepared fresh as needed (and often was) This is simply wrong. Grapes will have matured a bit differently in the different climates of the Near East, but in any given climate the ripening will be subject to only "microclimatic" variation of days or weeks at most. > (b) Sources indicate that the freshly-squeezed must was often boiled > down and stored for months at a time without fermentation This is at least theoretically possible -- raise the sugar content high enough and you get a syrup inhospitable to yeast. I assume Bacchiocchi found some obscure mentions of this. For this to be relevant to the issue, there would have to be documentary or archaeological evidence that such a technique was in *common* practice in ancient Palestine. Here is where I *would* like to see the references. But *please* note that unless this syrup is treated as a reserve for dilution immediately before serving it will, on dilution again, become an attractive medium for yeast growth and fermentation -- so don't keep it around for more than a day or so or you'll have wine. For all I know, the ancients liked yeasty "new" wine so much that they kept syrup around all year in order to make up a batch of week-old wine on command. Note that modern grape growers freeze a portion of their crop to sell to amateur wine-makers (the one batch of wine I've made was done from frozen grapes; grape syrup would have been a practical way of doing the same thing in the ancient world. New wine bubbling with the CO2 evolved by the yeast would have been an ancient "bubbly" and quite possibly a highly desirable drink and the subject of verbal differentiation from older -- and more alcoholic -- still wine. Mature wine was commonly diluted in ancient practice, maybe to get it down to the alcohol content of beer or of incompletely fermented "new" wine. Consider the "yuppies" of David's or Solomon's courts! Yeasts are omnipresent in human environments (note that even in our very scrubbed and antiseptic America, yeast infections are very common ailments). A bread making culture (like Palestine) *certainly* had yeast everywhere in sufficient quantity and of a variety adapted to anaerobic fermentation of sugar to alcohol and carbon dioxide. If you press grapes today and let them sit, they will start fermenting into wine within a day or two. Wine makers (and beer makers and bread makers ...) use packaged yeasts for a couple of reasons a. predictablility of results; this is the main point. b. dominating the cultures with a specially desired strain that is adapted to the purpose (wine makers like to use yeasts that come from Bordeaux or Burgundy, for some odd reason :-)), has some highly specific "taste" as side effect from the basic reaction. > Grape juice could also be and was preserved by sealing with various > sealants or by immersion in underground springs. No. Yeast produce alcohol from sugar (in grape juice) by anaerobic reactions. Sealing grape juice will *not* prevent it from turning into wine; sealing is a treatment for preserving *already fermented wine* from turning into vinegar (which *is* an aerobic reaction). As long as yeasts are present -- and they *wil* be, they form the "bloom" on the skins of the grapes -- the juice WILL ferment to wine within a few days. This will be very frothy and yeasty and undrinkable wine by our standards, but grape juice without modern preserva- tives WILL have an appreciable alcohol content within 24 hours of its pressing. Sealing unfermented grape juice is a prescription for an explosion. Boiling the "must" (the pressed grapes, usually with skins) can drive off any alcohol and kill the yeast and concentrate the sugar to the point that a syrup is produced. As I said above, this is a matter on which I'd like to see sources. (Further oenological note; once the alcohol reaches a certain percentage, it becomes toxic to the yeasts and they die off and drop to the bottom of the fermentation vat. This is partly dependent on the strain of yeast, but with modern wine yeasts it is at about 12% alcohol by volume. Given modern tastes for dry wine, wine makers harvest their grapes so that they have just enough sugar (about 24%) to leave little or no residual sugar after this point at which the fermentation ends. If you want know more about wine, THE book to read is Amerine and Johnson _Wine, an Introduction_, U. of California Press. That title may be a bit off; in any case this is a classic book out of the eonological program at Cal. Davis.) > (c) The same difficulties which plagued grape juice storage would also > plague the storage of wine. In fact, it was not until the 1800s that > Pasteur did his study on why some grape juice underwent alcoholic > fermentation and other juice underwent the undesirable lactic acid > fermentation. Don't let the oenophiles hear you calling the malo-lactic fermentation undesirable! More seriously, you simply do not have the facts straight on what Pasteur did for the French wine industry (and why Pasteurization was developed -- hint: it had nothing to do with milk!) The problems of wine storage are in fact totally different from those of grape juice storage. Pasteurization kills organisms (bacteria, I think, but I could be misremem- bering this) that turn alcohol into vinegar. (There is another, inorganic "oxidation" reaction that can spoil wine as well.) I think it is a desperate mistake to attempt to "preserve" the Bible from the impurities of alcohol. It is a dangerous drug, and the Bible is quite ambivalent about it, for when used sparingly and spiritually it is indeed a joy to God and humanity. But as with all of creation, we can all too easily look upong the "good" and by our own greed destroy it and turn it to evil. It is the human failing that must be our spiritual focus, not a misguided attempt to project all the problem onto a simple chemical. -- Michael L. Siemon I was ready to be sought by those m.siemon@ATT.COM who did not ask for me; ...!att!sfbat!mls I was ready to be found by those standard disclaimer who did not seek me. -- Isaiah 65:1
gilham@csl.sri.com (Fred Gilham) (03/06/90)
Out of curiosity I looked up, in Strong's concoordance, the word used for wine in Psalm 104.15. I think this is the quotation being referred to, though I am not sure. Anyway, it is the word for effervescent wine, which is definitely fermented. Interestingly enough, the quotation that followed this one in Strong's used the word for new (or unfermented) wine. Thus it is possible that someone could have accidently read the wrong Hebrew word-number and gotten the wrong idea here. Personally I think the definitive ``proof-text'' regarding this issue is Colossians 2.21-23, suitably qualified by Paul's admonitions elsewhere about not causing one's brother to stumble. -- Fred Gilham gilham@csl.sri.com "The culture of any period is a mixture of that which docilely caters to passing whims and fancies and that which transcends these things -- and may also pass judgement on them." -- Stanislaw Lem
st0o+@andrew.cmu.edu (Steven Timm) (03/06/90)
This is the latest contribution to the continuing flamefest on wine on both internet.christia and netnews.soc.religion.christian. It seems that the more I post on wine the more flames I draw. Therefore, introductory comments are in order: A quote from the preface of Bacchiocchi's book "Wine In The Bible" (4569 Lisa Lane, Berrien Springs, MI 49103, $12.95) copyright 1989. "It is only when a Christian recognizes that drinking is not only a bad habit that can harm our health, but a transgression of a God-given principle to ensure our health and holiness, that he or she will feel compelled to abstain from intoxicating substances." (Pg. 42) With the above statement I don't agree. I don't believe anything is gained by adding a spiritual guilt trip to the guilt feelings which alcoholics already feel. Therefore I am at odds with the purpose of Dr. Bacchiocchi's book. Nevertheless I feel that he has brought out some important points in this book which need to be brought out to balance the blanket statements which have been made in both newsgroups about there being no way to preserve grape juice in Biblical times, and how all instances of wine in the NT are fermented. Clearly anyone who claims that the Bible teaches total abstinence faces some formidable Biblical challenges. I must admit to not having read any sources by more liberal theologians or more well-informed scientists. I hope that someone will supply the relevant sources pointing to the use of fermented wine in the OT, as I don't have access to these. And, although I don't necessarily agree myself with everything in the book (or other books by the same author) , here is the synopsis of the argument of one arch-conservative scholar. >In a 4-Mar-90 Post, mls@cbnewsm.ATT.COM (mike.siemon) writes: >Stephen Timm is suffering from some misconceptions about wine in the >ancient (or modern) world. >He writes: >> when wine is praised as that "which gladdeneth both God and man" >> the word for unfermented grape juice is used. >I'm afraid that counts as assuming what you want to prove, not a tactic >that recommends itself when the matter is in dispute. You got me there, Mike. Closer reading reveals that there are two basic words for wine in the OT: tirosh and yayin. Also there is shekar, translated as "strong drink" in the KJV and ever since (although Bacchiocchi doesn't agree that strong drink is the correct translation in Deut. 14:26) Tirosh is the Hebrew word for grape juice (per Strong's Concordance). This is praised in a number of locations, and translated in the KJV as wine. However I suggested in my last post that yayin, the Hebrew word for wine, was universally condemned in the OT. This is in fact not so. Yayin is the word in such passages as "Wine is a mocker," but there are other passages where it is mentioned in a neutral or positive context (Song of Solomon 1:2,4 4:10. Bacchiocchi's argument is that the word yayin can be used to refer to either fermented or unfermented wine. He cites sources from the Jewish Encyclopedia (Wine, The Jewish Encyclopedia, 1906, vol 12, p. 533, and Encyclopedia Judaica, 1971, vol 16. p. 538) which indicate independent and contemporary usage of yayin for unfermented wine and that such was allowable in Jewish ceremonies. In the NT, the overwhelming number of references to wine are to the Greek word oinos, whence we get our present word oenology. Again, Greek possesses a word for grape juice as well [gleukos] , but it occurs only in Acts 2:13. Clearly any attempt to suggest a NT teaching of abstinence will have to establish the type of wine produced by Jesus at Cana (John 2). We must understand the parable of new wine and old wineskins (Luke 5:39). We must establish the "fruit of the vine" and "the cup" used at the Lord's Supper. We must answer the charge on the day of Pentecost, "These men are drunk on new wine." (Acts 2:13). We will have to successfully explain the charge "Behold, a gluttonous man, and a winebibber" (Luke 7:33-35) laid against Jesus. Finally, we must answer Paul's admonition to Timothy "Use a little wine for the sake of your stomach..." (1 Timothy 5:23). Such a task is so formidable that few have tried it. Whether Dr. Bacchiocchi has succeeded can really only be determined by reading his book and the other sources both pro and con that he cites. A synopsis of his argument follows. The Septuagint translation from Hebrew to Greek translates both tirosh and yayin as oinos, or wine. This indicates that oinos referred both to fermented and unfermented wine, and this point is supported with various references to classical Greek literature. WEDDING FEAST AT CANA: Bacchiocchi quotes Roman authors of the time (Pliny, Plutarch) to suggest that "good wine" was not necessarily considered to be the most alcoholic. The greek word for "well drunk" is analyzed and shown to not necessarily indicate intoxication. NEW WINE IN OLD WINESKINS New wine was not (as many have suggested) placed into wineskins to ferment. Neither old or new wine was put into skins to ferment--fermentation was carried out in jars. (Alexander Bruce--Expositor's New Testament) New wine here refers to unfermented juice, filtered and boiled, and then stored in skins. Old skins could not be used for new wine precisely because old sediment would lead to fermentation and rupture of the skin. {shaky.. study this one out for yourself. But this is not the only place where new wine is mentioned in the Bible in non-intoxicating context. Read on} "THE FRUIT OF THE VINE" Note that in none of the Lord's Supper accounts does the term oinos appear. Bacchiocchi quotes contemporary writings from Josephus where 'gennema tes ampelou' (the fruit of the vine) explicitly describes grape juice. The Jewish Encyclopedia indicates that the wine of the Seder service was unfermented, as does Louis Ginzberg, a Talmud scholar. Bacchiocchi asserts without proof that Orthodox Jews to this day employ unfermented wine. He cites a long list of church authorities, including St. Thomas Aquinas, indicating that unfermented alcohol is permissible in the sacrament. "DRUNK ON NEW WINE" Here the only use of 'gleukos' in the Bible, a Greek word for nonintoxicating grape juice. This taunt was a mockery, knowing that the disciples did not drink wine, the crowds mocked their temperance by teasing them about being drunk on grape juice. "GLUTTONOUS MAN AND WINEBIBBER" Careful: The text said that Jesus came drinking, but not necessarily all kinds of wine. John the Baptist, by contrast, as a Nazirite, abstained from wine and from grapes. If we believe the accusations of the scribes and Pharisees, then Jesus was also a Samaritan, and had a demon, and was mad. A LITTLE WINE FOR THE STOMACH Bacchiocchi quotes Aristotle, Athenaeus, and Pliny to show that unfermented grape juice was known and used by the Greeks of that time for medicinal value. (although fermented wine was as well). But could unfermented juice be stored? I gave a rough description in an earlier short post which was rightly flamed. Again from Mike Siemon >SCT> (a) Grapes were in season at various times during the year, and the >SCT> juice could be prepared fresh as needed (and often was) >This is simply wrong. Grapes will have matured a bit differently in >the different climates of the Near East, but in any given climate the >ripening will be subject to only "microclimatic" variation of days or >weeks at most. Mea culpa. But have you ever heard of raisins? >SCT> (b) Sources indicate that the freshly-squeezed must was often boiled >SCT> down and stored for months at a time without fermentation >This is at least theoretically possible -- raise the sugar content high >enough and you get a syrup inhospitable to yeast. I assume Bacchiocchi >found some obscure mentions of this. For this to be relevant to the >issue, there would have to be documentary or archaeological evidence that >such a technique was in *common* practice in ancient Palestine. Here is >where I *would* like to see the references. OK. Most of Bacchiocchi's sources are Roman. Pliny refers to sapa and defrutum as boiled must of 1/3 and 1/2 the original volume. Also to passum, a unfermented raisin-wine. All these had high sugar content and were thus less likely to ferment. Josephus also refers to stores of wine, oil, fruits, etc. at Masada (though his claim of a hundred years is incredulous). de Bost in the Dictionaire de la Bible suggests that the Hebrew 'debash' translated as 'honey' in KJV may actually refer to a thick grape syrup, taking as a basis the beverage known as 'dibs' in Arabic, known in Syria and Palestine to the present day. Sources A. Russell, Natural History of Aleppo. Kitto, Cyclopedia of Biblical Literature. >SCT> Grape juice could also be and was preserved by sealing with various >SCT> sealants or by immersion in underground springs. >No. Yeast produce alcohol from sugar (in grape juice) by anaerobic reactions. >Sealing grape juice will *not* prevent it from turning into wine; sealing is >a treatment for preserving *already fermented wine* from turning into vinegar >(which *is* an aerobic reaction). As long as yeasts are present -- and they >*wil* be, they form the "bloom" on the skins of the grapes -- the juice WILL >ferment to wine within a few days. This will be very frothy and yeasty and >undrinkable wine by our standards, but grape juice without modern preserva- >tives WILL have an appreciable alcohol content within 24 hours of its pressing. Unless it is kept at very cold temperatures. Below 4 C, fermentation doesn't occur. Both the conditions: sealing, and cold temperatures, are required. In that respect my first post was incorrect. Bacchiocchi quotes Collumella and Cato to show that this method was known to the Romans. Bacchiocchi admits that archaeological data is lacking in Palestine. Quite right, however, that sealing won't stop fermentation at normal temperatures and will stop fermentation into vinegar. Further correction: Lactic acid fermentation is not undesirable. It's not correct to say that the problems of wine storage are the same as those of storing grape juice. This is not to say that it wasn't difficult to store, however. Cato and Columella both mention marble dust, resin, or boiled must (g.j.) as a preservative for wine. Further reading on the subject. Supporting Bacchiocchi: (one of his major sources) Robert Teachout Wine: The Biblical Imperative: Total Abstinence Available from the author 12518 Hanfor, Allen Park MI 48101. $5.00. Note that while Bacchiocchi is a 7th Day Adventist (and I am as well, as I've stated openly in previous posts on the net) Teachout is not. A more liberal perspective: Kenneth L. Gentry, The Christian and Alcoholic Beverages (Grand Rapids, 1986) Now: for all the fundamentalists, who having seen the remarkable convincingness of this argument, and the previous one, are prepared to support me with flames: Some advice. If you notice, in this post I've recanted at least five mistakes I made in the previous post. Since this post is significantly longer, there are probably more errors in it. These are all errors made describing a book which itself may contain mistakes (or more likely) a great deal of bias. If you really *need* a scriptural argument to not drink, please don't take my word for it! And if this tenuous study in support of abstinence is all that's keeping you from drinking, you're setting yourself up to have your bubble blown by the first person who's read more than you. For those who are composing their response flame as they read this message, please make cogent arguments as Mike Siemon did, rather than two-sentence appeals to logic and technology. I'll supply more references on request, but there are hundreds of entries in Bacchiocchi's bibliography and I didn't want to waste unnecessary bandwidth unless someone is actually going to look them up. Peace, Steve