gross@dg-rtp.dg.com (Gene Gross) (03/16/90)
Couple of things here that I would like to address. First is the use of the metaphors. I think that the metaphors are still very useful today. I believe that there is an actual entity named Satan and that there are fallen angels, sometimes called demons. Satan and the fallen angels are at war with God, those who believe in God, and against the human race generally. However, I don't accept the practice of blaming everything on Satan and the fallen angels. Humanity is quite capable of doing evil on their own. Because I see this spiritual war going on, I find the metaphors quite appropriate and fitting. But one thing to notice is the battle position. It is on our knees in prayer. This says to me that our battle is not a physical one, in the sense of a Viet Nam, but rather a spiritual one. As for the abused child, I do concur to a point. Having been beaten as a child, my concept of God as a Father was not a good one. I expected that if I did something the least little bit wrong, He'd smack me up side the head--why not my Dad would have done it. But it is a terrible thing to live in constant fear of God's wrath and punishment. Finally, God showed me through others and the Bible that He was not that kind of Father. Sure, if I did something wrong, I had to deal with the consequences of my actions, but I didn't have to live in fear of getting beat up for my mistakes. Now I know what it means to be a father, a Dad, because my Father has shown me love and mercy. The metaphor works for me because it has ceased to be simply a metaphor. It has become a living reality. Darren, on the tolerance versus intolerance, I think that we have to step back a minute and take another look here. First of all, we are told by Paul to defend the Faith delievered to us. That puts a burden on us, but not one that is unwholesome nor unwarranted. Your use of the longstanding debate between Sabatarians and those of us who worship on the first day of the week I think misses the point. Point is that if someone came to teach and preach and taught and preached that Jesus was the son of a Jewish prostitute and legionnaire, would you permit this? Is this to be tolerated? Suppose that this mythical person teaches that adultery is perfectly acceptable in God's sight, do we tolerate this? Or suppose this person says that we should use whatever force is necessary to make others conform, including killing? Personally, I cannot tolerate any of these. The other discussion over the Sabbath will not be settled until Jesus returns--and He is returning. Until then, I love my brothers and sisters who are Adventists. I disagree with some of their positions, but in my discourse with them via this net, I have never--never--been mistreated nor abused. And we've had some pretty vibrant and vigorous discussions. ;-) I have to side with Ken on this matter. There are just certain things that I cannot and will not tolerate, not as tenets nor doctrines of the Faith. I'm open to someone showing me that I'm incorrect in my understanding of something in the Bible. And that has happened. But I find that there are certain foundational truths that are absolutely essential to the Faith. If someone disagrees with me over this so be it. That does not make that person my enemy--I already know who my enemy is. I often find myself talking with people who share a doctrine that I personally cannot ascribe to, but they know my thinking on the matter. And while I probably wouldn't have used the same words that Ken did, I nonetheless agree with his position. Grace and Peace, Gene
jmoon@lehi3b15.csee.lehigh.edu (Jonggu Moon [890911]) (03/16/90)
In article <Mar.13.03.05.47.1990.13738@athos.rutgers.edu> bgsuvax!kutz@cis.ohio-state.edu (Kenneth J. Kutz) writes: >You had asked why do people spend so much time trying to prove >innerrancy. I suppose it is fair to ask, why do you as a Christian >spend so much time trying to discredit the Book which Paul calls "God >breathed"? Why do spend so much of your effort trying to publicly >discredit the Book which contains the teachings of the one you profess >to follow? If you are follower of Jesus Christ, perhaps you could >stand with Him for once and say "It is written" rather than "It is >written poorly". Why shouldn't we question everything that doesn't seem to make sense ? God has granted by his amazing grace, the gift of logic and reasoning. We know if something doesn't sit right or doesn't exactly fit. Shall we throw this second sense away ? What if Columbus was "gently rebuked" for going against the mainstream of accepted theology ? What if Martin Luther did not question the unquestionable edicts of the Pope ? Taking the devil's advocate has its values too. It prepares us for any questions a true antagontist might come up with in the future. > If you are a follower of Jesus Christ... Therefore I am not a follower of Jesus Christ ? Personally, I enjoy observing as well as partaking in the acrobatics of apologetics. It sharpens my tounge and exercises my brain in preparation for the late night debates with people who have genuine, sincere doubts about making that first big step into the Kingdom. If someone, Christian or non-Christian, friendly or hostile, considerate or brusque, correctively critical or trouble making, asks a question that troubles or confuses you, or best yet, a question that you just don't know the answer to, Praise God ! God has just revealed a weakness ! Now ask Him to fix it. ^>*<^jon