jeffjs@ihlpb.att.com (05/29/90)
[This may be a duplicate; the news software was just upgraded on AT&T's news servers, so I can't swear that inews actually mailed this to you.] In article <May.24.00.07.30.1990.18487@athos.rutgers.edu> emory!dragon!cms@gatech.edu writes: > It seems to me to be a basic attitude that "real Protestants" don't *really* > believe the saints are alive in heaven; I don't know where on earth you picked that one up! I just know that Hebrews says "Let us approach the throne of grace with confidence" (4:16 NIV), or (I think) "Let us come *boldly* to the throne of grace" (4:16 KJV, my emphasis). If we are encouraged to go straight to the top to ask for what we need, why go to anyone else? I sort of remember that Cindy pointed out in another article that "pray" means "request", and that there's nothing wrong with requesting people (alive on earth, or alive in heaven) to pray (or do other things) for us. Granted; though I still feel that if you're talking to heaven in the first place, you might as well talk to the One who has *always* been alive in heaven. But if that's all that prayer to the saints means -- if the word "pray" is being used in a somewhat archaic or literary sense to mean simply "earnest request" -- then I suggest that the Catholics choose another word rather than confuse the issue by sticking to the word "pray". Anything that puts the departed saints in a special, even deified, position -- such as is the usual connotation of "pray", as seen by a Protestant -- is highly questionable. Those saints are freed from their sins, yes; but they are still human ex-sinners, created beings, freed by God's gift. If you remember, when John fell at the feet even of an angel (Revelation 19:10), the angel declined to accept his worship, but stated that he was only a fellow servant. Going off on another of my tangents, this is something I have (thank God!) been growing more and more to understand, that righteousness -- both positional and actual -- is entirely God's gift! It is He that gives us the grace to do good works; we do not have to somehow generate them on our own. He really does give us everything. It is genuinely "amazing grace". On another tangent, I'd appreciate any prayers, or any other help I can get from this group. As AT&T is trimming its workforce, and I am one of those being trimmed, I am about to be minus a regular paycheck. [Also I'm about to be minus Usenet, and Usenet withdrawal is a sight only for STRONG stomachs! :-)] If you know of a place where a reasonably intelligent hacker/sysadmin/ software engineer/computer scientist/... with an MSCS, 13 years work experience (including several in Unix with C, some VM/CMS, a touch of Cyber 205, etc.), and good English skills might find employment, please contact me: Jeff Sargent 6 S. 551 Naper Blvd., #4 Naperville, IL 60540 (708) 717-9372 Or send me email at the address below, but that will be no good after May 31. -- Jeff Sargent att!ihlpb!jeffjs (UUCP), jeffjs@ihlpb.att.com (Internet) AT&T Bell Laboratories (temporarily) IH 5A-433 (708) 979-5284