mangoe@cs.umd.edu (Charley Wingate) (05/29/90)
>I doubt that the non-use of "transubstantiation" has much to do with >disassociation with pagan philosophies. The men involved simply don't >believe in transubstantiation. Sorry, Joe, but I have to dissent. On the *official* level, we prefer "real presence" to "transsubstantiation" because we don't believe in the truth of the aristotlean language which is an integral part of the doctrine. The notions of "accident" and "substance" are not part of our philosophical language. It also isn't clear to us that it is necessary to explain the eucharist beyond real presence. If you look at what individual episcopalians believe, you will find every conceivable theory, including a fair number of *non*-"real presence" theories. You will find a fair sprinkling of believers in transsubstantiation. Personally, I find the theory implausible, but we've been through that before. The issue decided in the anglican churches has not been for or against transsubstantiation. The decision has been made that such a doctrine/theory is not needed at all. As far as the passage about "leaving father, mother, brother, sister, wife", I have looked up as many such passages as I could find, and only the passage in Luke mentions wives, and it does not say "leave", but "hate". -- C. Wingate + "The peace of God, it is no peace, + but strife closed in the sod. mangoe@cs.umd.edu + Yet let us pray for but one thing-- mimsy!mangoe + the marv'lous peace of God."
firth@sei.cmu.edu (06/05/90)
In article <May.24.01.00.16.1990.21330@athos.rutgers.edu> jhpb@garage.att.com writes: >The word "pagan" in this context smacks more of a sneer than anything >else. One simply cannot take such a position seriously. Are we going >to discard the Pythagorean theorem because a Pagan discovered it? Joe, please go back to what I wrote, which was this: ] The Anglican church holds to the Real Presence. It does ] not use the term "transubstantiation" because it does not ] believe the Christian faith should be explained in terms of ] pagan philosophy. I certainly don't sneer ar pagan Antiquity, and believe Pythagoras to be one of the greatest men who ever lived. But geometry is not theology, and paganism is not revealed religion. Since you mention the famous Theorem, consider the following scenario: A learned Doctor of the Anglican Church writes a treatise on the Holy Trinity. In that treatise, he compares the three Persons of the Trinity to the three sides of a right triangle, and explains the relationships between them in terms of the Theorem of Pythagoras. This goes down so well, that a Synod is called, at which the Pythagorean explanation of the Trinity is raised to the status of dogma, declared "the one true doctrine from now until the end of time", and required of all Anglicans as necessary for salvation. Finally, the Archbishop of Canterbury decrees that all schools of theology must teach only Pythagorean Trinitarianism, its tenets must be incorporated in the Catechism, and no other explanation of the Trinity is ever to be discussed, propounded, or countenanced. No, it couldn't happen - but this is pretty close to the way in which Aristotle's doctrine of substance and accidence came to be incorporated in Roman dogma. Do you see now why some of us think it repugnant to reason and damaging to faith?