kriz@skat.usc.edu (Dennis Kriz) (05/29/90)
>From article <May.20.02.55.50.1990.27045@athos.rutgers.edu>, by ctdonath@rodan.acs.syr.edu (Carl T. Donath): >Status: RO > >> Pardon my ignorance, but I know very little about this Fatima thing (thanks >> the one who posted its history). I have a few problems with what Mary is >> supposed to have said during her appearances. >> To a certain extent ... this can also be said of the Catholic Church too. Apparitions aren't instantly authenticated. By no means actually! Witness the Marjegorie contraversy. But the Catholic Church clearly recognizes that authentic apparitions can occur. Why would it believe so? There are better people to explain this, but here is a fairly simple explanation ... apparitions clearly occured throughout Biblical times. At times God himself would materialize (the burning bush, and cloud of fire and smoke that led the Hebrews out of Egypt). Sometimes God would send messengers like the Angel Gabriel, who appeared from time to time throughout the whole of the Biblical era. Moses and Elijah appeared during the Transfiguration. Christ appeared to his followers several times after his death ... perhaps most significantly in this discussion to Paul on the road to Damascus *after* Christ's Ascension into Heaven, and *after* the coming down of the gift of the Holy Spirit to the Church. God clearly has chosen to invervene in human events, and clearly has chosen to do so in a number of ways. ******************* Why Mary? In a sense ... why not? Clearly, she left a major mark on the early Christians. Even in the Bible, she is depicted as having been a present in the early Church, present at Pentacost, present with the Apostles, present. The earliest artwork which survives from the Christian era, is full of depictions of Mary, Mary and the Apostles, each individual Apostle, the Evangelists, the risen Christ, and so on. Boulderdash ... but it clearly shows that Mary had a special respect even in the earliest days of the Church. ********************* But back to the apparitions. Basically, the Catholic Church believes that miraculous signs are possible ... It's really not unlike the Pentacostalist who believes that the Holy Spirit can allow someone speak in tongues and others understand what that person is saying. Now think about it ... what is the person speaking in tongues saying? Does his/her speaking in tongues violate the view that in the Bible revelation is complete? Paul talks about people receiving the gift of being able to speak the languages of angels. Those kids in Fatima and perhaps in Margegorie were given the gift of being able to speak with Mary. dennis kriz@skat.usc.edu ------------------------------------------
ta00est@unccvax.UUCP (elizabeth s tallant) (06/05/90)
For that matter, anyone who believes in the Bible also believes in miricles. I have seen people "speak in tounges" who claimed that they were speaking in tounges, but I don't think that they were. Here is the reason. In each of these ceremonies, disorder dominated the service. People were screaiming, wailing, walking around, etc. In my opinion, this is not a worship service. The Bible says that God is a God of order. A service dedicated to God would be a service and not a circius. This, however, it not to say that speaking in tounges does not exist. Paul says that some people have the gift of speaking in tounges, and note that he says this after Christ's resurrection. Thus, someone at sometime or another is bound to speak in tounges. And as Paul further mentioned, some have the gift of translating in tounges. I know this sounds really wild, but at once when I attended one of these "circius" ceremonies, I took an Moslem Arab friend who wanted to "observe." During the ceremony, I was surprised to find an uneducated-looking American woman saying things in Arabic. She was sitting directly behind us. Coinci- dence that she spoke a little Arabic? Or may something greater?
jhpb@garage.att.com (06/05/90)
Bob Fyfe wrote: > In some sense, I am now the blacksheep or rebel of my family - yes, even at > 34 years old! I've left the Catholic church... But I have a heart for many > who are in the Catholic church - my mother and brothers and sister and > aunts and uncles and... I could go on. I want them to know what Jesus said, > "Unless a man be born again...". I want to - with them - come to a conclusion > on the function of Mary. Does she have a function? If so, what is the > scriptural basis for it? I want to know! I have a mother, sister, niece, aunt > and cousin heading for Medjugorjia (sp?) in about 3 weeks. It's important > that I know the basis of why THEY are going. What do they hope to accomplish? > And yes, I did the obvious, I asked them? Believe it or not, I could not get > a straight answer... Some of the primary passages regarding our Lady are the following: the Annunciation: Here she accepts to become the mother of God. This is the foundation of all her dignities and privileges. the Visitation: St. John the Baptist is sanctified in his mother's womb at the sound of her greeting to St. Elizabeth. The Blessed Virgin is a channel of graces. Also, wherever she is, our Lord is. the wedding feast at Cana: Our Lord worked His first public miracle at her request. She effected this without any requests from the people in need, even. Her spirituality can be summed up in her own words: "Do whatever He tells you." at the foot of the Cross: Ever faithful to the Word Incarnate. There are many works dealing with Scripture regarding our Lady. The more famous ones are by the Fathers of the Church, the Doctors of the Church (e.g., St. Bernard, St. Thomas Aquinas). And of course, the magisterium, e.g., the general councils (Ephesus is an early one of interest) and modern Papal encyclicals (Leo XIII had several on the Rosary, for example). In a way, I can see what happened to you. I am about your age, and probably had the same experience of the Catholic Church that you had as a youth. When I finished my 12 years in the schools, I knew about as much about my religion as a 3rd grader should know. There was little sense of community, also, although that varied from parish to parish, I'm sure. In a certain sense, you never really did leave the Catholic Church; you've probably never even seen the real Catholic Church, just the remnants of what it once was. The destruction since Vatican II has been very great. I ended up with the great grace (for such it was) of stumbling on some Catholics who knew what they were about. Joe Buehler