bjstaff@uunet.uu.net (06/05/90)
Greetings: I have been following the various threads on "praying to saints" with great interest, as I was raised in a Protestant church, and have been curious about this practice for a long time. Prior to this discussion, I thought that this practice came very close to worshipping deceased Christians as pseudo-deities. I now understand that the Catholic church uses the term "pray" in an unconventional manner. I think this must have caused a great deal of confusion among non-Catholics. It seems to me like Catholic theologians had to stretch the Scriptures quite a bit to justify "praying to saints". I still have a question, however. How does the Catholic church *know* that any particular deceased person actually *made it* into heaven? Doesn't that decision belong to God? Brad Staff ...uunet!zds-ux!bjstaff
jhpb@garage.att.com (06/07/90)
Brad Staff wrote: > worshipping deceased Christians as pseudo-deities. I now understand that the > Catholic church uses the term "pray" in an unconventional manner. I think > this must have caused a great deal of confusion among non-Catholics. I think that is indeed part of the problem; there is a different nuance for the same word. Curiously enough, I looked in the Catholic encyclopedia under prayer, and it spoke only of God, not the saints. > It seems to me like Catholic theologians had to stretch the Scriptures quite > a bit to justify "praying to saints". I still have a question, however. How > does the Catholic church *know* that any particular deceased person actually > *made it* into heaven? Doesn't that decision belong to God? Invoking saints (as I usually term it to avoid confusion over the word "prayer") isn't rooted in scripture interpretation, and that's part of the problem here. Catholic theologians aren't limited to considerations based on Scripture, Brad. They also base their theology on some parts of Church history. The basic idea is that our Lord founded the Catholic Church, a visible organization to save souls. Because of its mission, it is necessary that this Church not be able to fall into error in any serious way. With this for a basic tenet, one looks at ecclesiastical history in a different way; it becomes a source of theology. If the Holy Ghost prevents serious error from overwhelming the Church, then, obviously, the practices that rise and put down roots (so to speak), cannot be in error. When an error does come along, it *always* gets resisted and eventually cast out of the Church. When things get really bad, this happens in a general council. Invocation of the Saints is a practice that arose in the early history of the Church (by 400 AD at least), probably out of the honor that was given to the early martyrs. In some cases, miraculous cures were worked in conjunction with the relics of such martyrs; this probably led to their invocation. St. Augustine records a number of such miracles. Because the practice is so old, it is widespread. Protestants are the only Christian group that I'm aware of that do not, as a rule, invoke the Saints. Of course, some Anglicans do; but then again, perhaps such Anglicans do not consider themselves Protestants; I don't know. How does the Church *know* that anyone is in Heaven? Well, humanly speaking, before someone is declared a canonized Saint (which is what we're talking about), their whole life undergoes a rigorous examination. There is one man in charge of promoting the person's cause for canonization, and there is one man called the "devil's advocate", who does everything he can to *prevent* the person from being canonized. Various experts in theology are involved. There's no rush, either. You can't be canonized until you're at least 50 years dead. In the final analysis, though, the decision does not depend on merely human reasoning and investigation. It is, again, based on the idea that the Church is not merely a human organization, but is guided by the Holy Ghost. So, the Holy Ghost guides events to get the right persons declared to be in Heaven. As you noted, this is, strictly speaking, not something that any merely human organization could know. The final decision rests with the Pope. The common opinion of Catholic theologians is that the declaration involved is an exercise of Papal infallibility. Just for your interest, here are a few people who currently have a cause for canonization: Alexandrina da Costa She jumped from the height of two stories to escape a man who was attacking her. She spent the rest of her life crippled in bed as a result. She was a great mystic; I think she lived several years on nothing but the Blessed Sacrament. Padre Pio He was an Italian Franciscan priest who died in 1967. As far as gifts go, he had a number of them, including the stigmata, bilocation, and the ability to read people's consciences. Blessed Catherine Tekakwitha She was an American Indian converted by Jesuit missionaries in New York, back in the 1600's. Her tomb is in Canada, where she went to live in a Catholic community. Jacinta and Francisco Marto I mentioned in conjunction with Fatima. There is also an Austrian emperor who has a cause for canonization. Perhaps someone can help me with some history here; I think he died in exile, and is buried in Spain or Portugal. I also think he was emperor in the WWI timeframe, though I'm not sure. One of his names is Joseph. Joe Buehler