kamphau@oktext..sbc.com (Mark Kamphaus) (06/05/90)
In article <May.29.02.43.39.1990.27510@athos.rutgers.edu> tbvanbelle@watcgl.waterloo.edu (Terry Van Belle) writes:
# Remember, part of Christian doctrine
#is that he not only was crucified, but also went to hell for a time
#(wherever that is).
This is only meant to clarify this one statement. I agree with
Mr. Van Belle's post.
"hell" as used in 20 century america is much different than the "hell"
Jesus went to. The "hell" is more akin to the greek "hades" which is
just the abode of the dead. It did not mean a place of torment. This is
examplified by the the parable of the man talking with Abraham and asking
if he could return to warn others. There is a firey pit between the
two areas. The one area was punishment, the second was most likely paridise.
This is the greek view of what we collectively call hell. Jesus preached
to those held captive and, when he resurrected, he lead forth the captives in
his train. That is Paridise was taken to heaven. The place Jesus went was
also called "paridise" by the statement he made to the other man on the
cross. (today,you will be with me in paradise.) I think some of the more
modern Bibles do not use "hell" as a translation.gevans@oiscola.columbia.ncr.com (GKEvans) (06/07/90)
In article <Jun.4.23.11.13.1990.15418@athos.rutgers.edu> kamphau@oktext..sbc.com (Mark Kamphaus) writes: >In article <May.29.02.43.39.1990.27510@athos.rutgers.edu> tbvanbelle@watcgl.waterloo.edu (Terry Van Belle) writes: ># Remember, part of Christian doctrine >#is that he not only was crucified, but also went to hell for a time >#(wherever that is). > >"hell" as used in 20 century america is much different than the "hell" >Jesus went to. The "hell" is more akin to the greek "hades" which is >just the abode of the dead. It did not mean a place of torment. This is Mark, you are correct that "hades" is the abode of the dead, and that many Greeks believed this. Others of a more mystical bent, however, did not have such a neutral view of the after-life. But what the "rational" Greeks thought (even the Pythagoreans held wildly mystical views) is not completely germaine to what the 1st century Hebrew writers of the Gospels meant by the term hell (or sheol). I am aware of no Biblical exegesis from the Greek or Hebrew which does not describe "hell" (no matter what word you use for it) as: 1. a place in which spirits may reside 2. a state of eternal existence (ALL have eternal life; the issue is "where?"), and 3. that it is a place of "accountability" - i.e. paying the piper. Note: I specifically reject the theologies of the Mormons and the Jehovah's Witnesses in this area because the Mormons believe in 3 levels of heaven (and no hell) but also have their own late-model revelations which take precedence over the Bible, and the Witnesses continue to equate "sheol" with the burning garbage dump outside Jerusalem. They do not meet the requirement of using established Greek or Hebrew Biblical scriptures. I find "hell" in my modern translations - to which ones are you referring? -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Gary K. Evans, Software type |"Come now, and let us reason together..." gevans@oiscola.columbia.ncr.com | (Isa. 1:18) These are my opinions, | and not my employer's. | ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
george@watcgl.waterloo.edu (George Reimer) (06/07/90)
In article <Jun.4.23.11.13.1990.15418@athos.rutgers.edu> kamphau@oktext..sbc.com (Mark Kamphaus) writes: > >"hell" as used in 20 century america is much different than the "hell" >Jesus went to. The "hell" is more akin to the greek "hades" which is >just the abode of the dead. It did not mean a place of torment. ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ agreed. Hell as used in the original scriptures is more precise than todays' translations. The words hades and gehenna , used in the New Testament, and sheol in the Old Testament are all translated to the word hell. Hades ( HB ) and sheol ( GK ) mean the same thing. A reference to a literal grave. A place where something was when buried in the ground. The original King James translaters knew this as it was common at their time to make remarks like "...putting the potatoes in hell for the winter". Gehenna on the other hand, refers to a place that existed at Jesus' time. It was similar to what we we refer to as an incinerator and located just outside the city.( which one? I don't remember off hand... It was however known to those who heard Jesus speak of it ) Garbage, refuse, and even unclaimed bodies , I believe, were deposited there for disposal. When Christ refers to the Gehenna fire, He speaks of the type of fire, a fire intended for the total and complete destruction of the refuse given it. This is the so-called eternal fire, being in reality the unquenchable fire. Not that it lasts for eternity, but rather that there is nothing that can be done by its recipients to put it out. > Jesus preached >to those held captive and, when he resurrected, he lead forth the captives in >his train. That is Paridise was taken to heaven. I am really puzzled over this. What train do you mean? Also, could you give scriptural references regarding the taking of paradise into heaven? > The place Jesus went was >also called "paridise" by the statement he made to the other man on the >cross. (today,you will be with me in paradise.) Some comments about your reference: that might help clarify what Christ actually was saying to the man. i) Christ did not go to heaven that day. ii) the thief asked Him to remember him WHEN He came into His Kingdom , which will be at His second coming. iii)Paradise is located in the ->New<- Jerusalem. ( Rev 2:7, 22:1-2 ) iv) The punctuation of the verse in question ( Luke 23:43 ) was added by the translaters incorrectly. ( the original greek didn't have the commas ). More correctly, the word "today" emphasises the day Christ made the promise. With punctuation in it's proper place, the verse would read: "And Jesus said to him,'Assuredly, I say to you today, you will be with Me in Paradise." ( NKJ ) -- "I almost think that in certain cases yes, and in others, no....." George egroeG Reimer remieR [About that train: I believe this is from Eph 4:8. I can't find any translation that matches that wording exactly, but I do recall having heard it. Let again encourage people to give references when you are citing Scripture. About that Gehenna. There is apparently some debate as to what exactly it means. Not that there's anything wrong with your comments. The Anchor Bible commentary on Mat. says "the reference in the so-called "II Enoch" to the "valley of Gehenna" (liv 1) suggest a "tophet" in a valley, usually southeast of a city, out of the prevailing winds, where trash and garbage were burned, and where human sacrificial victims had been cremated in earlier times (as in Jerusalem and Carthage)." The Theological Word Book of the Bible says "Gehenna, that part of Sheol reserved for the wicked. Gehenna was originally 'the valley of Hinnom' near Jerusalem, where once child-sacrifice had been offered to Moloch by Ahaz (II Chr. 28.3) and Manasseh (33.6); it is thought to have become at a later date the city's refuse dump where rubbish was burnt, and so an appropriate symbol of punishment." However I have seen commentators indicate that in 1st Cent. apocalyptic thought Gehenna was sometimes thought of a place of eschatological judgement, so it had overtones that go somewhat beyond simply being an incinerator. The discussion in the Anchor Bible implies that this may have been based on later documents that do not accurately reflect the usages of Jesus' time. Everyone agrees that I note that the NKJ translation of Lk 23:43 is an unusual one. RSV, NRSV, TEV, NJB, NIV, and REB all have "today you will be with me in paradise" or the equivalent. Not that truth is determined by a vote, but at least you should know that the view of the NKJ translators is not a generally accepted one. --clh]
cattanac@clitus.cs.uiuc.edu (Scott Cattanach) (06/09/90)
>I note that the NKJ translation of Lk 23:43 is an unusual one. RSV, >NRSV, TEV, NJB, NIV, and REB all have "today you will be with me in >paradise" or the equivalent. Not that truth is determined by a vote, >but at least you should know that the view of the NKJ translators is >not a generally accepted one. What is the NKJ? I would assume the New King James is meant, but both of mine translate Luke 23:43 as ...to you, today you will be with me ... [Luke 23:43, NKJV] -- -catt (cattanac@cs.uiuc.edu)