[soc.religion.christian] a Christian motif that doesn't make sense to me

tbvanbelle@watcgl.waterloo.edu (Terry Van Belle) (05/29/90)

In article <May.23.23.30.44.1990.17304@athos.rutgers.edu> qpliu@andy.princeton.edu (Quowong Peter Liu) writes:
>``Jesus died for your sins,'' meaning that the Death (and the
>subsequent Miracle) of Jesus allows my sins to be forgiven.
>this idea is not self-evident to me, and what Christians seem
>concentrate on is the gruesome details of the Crucifixion and not why
>such an act causes the sins of a Christian who has Accepted Christ as
>Their Saviour (whatever that means).

It means that although we deserve hell as punishment for our sins,
Jesus has died instead, and thus, we are spared from hell if we want.
You can think of it as a fantastically large debt we have run up which
Jesus has offered to pay instead.  Remember, part of Christian doctrine
is that he not only was crucified, but also went to hell for a time
(wherever that is).

To accept Christ as your saviour is to admit that:
1) your sins form a huge barrier between you and God, which you are 
   adding to daily,
2) the eventual result of this barrier is hell,
3) there is no way for you to get rid of this barrier, except by allowing
   Jesus to do it.

At least, that's how I always understood it.

>qpliu@phoenix.princeton.edu
>qpliu@usc.pppl.gov

Terry Van Belle
tbvanbelle@cgl.waterloo.edu

kamphau@oktext..sbc.com (Mark Kamphaus) (05/29/90)

Quowong Peter Liu writes:
>i've heard it on television religion, i've heard it on radio religion,
>i've heard it from Christians trying to convert me, but it makes no
>sense to me, and as it seems that it is quite fundamental to
>Christianity and that there are a lot of smart Christians in
>explaining how Their religion works and convincing even more people to
>be Christians, here is what it is:
>``Jesus died for your sins,'' meaning that the Death (and the
>subsequent Miracle) of Jesus allows my sins to be forgiven.
>this idea is not self-evident to me, and what Christians seem
>concentrate on is the gruesome details of the Crucifixion and not why
>such an act causes the sins of a Christian who has Accepted Christ as
>Their Saviour (whatever that means).
>
Here is a perspective that may help. Man was "unkowing" of sin until the
LAW came, then because of Man's frailties, the LAW convicted Man of his
sins with his punishment being death.  When Jesus came, his perfection
allowed him to escape the punishment of the LAW, and hence the basis of
the Resurrection.  The LAW was not done away with or negated. It is still
in effect for the world today. Its pupose is to convict of sin.  When a
man becomes repentent and accepts Jesus as his Savior (differing doctrines
on exactly what this act entails) he is made a part of the body of Christ.
That is to say that the Man's former self has died (as punishment for
breaking the LAW) and has become a new creation in Christ where he is not
under the LAW but Grace. Jesus, as the propitiation of Man's sin, was
subject to die under the LAW, and he was put to death, but Jesus the man
was not convicted of death under the LAW and therefore overcame death.
His death is counted as your death punishment because of your sins, his
resurrection is shared with you for your promise of life eternal.  
The phrase "Jesus died for your sins" means that He died as fulfilment of
the LAW (the punishment for death) in your place because of your sins.
An analogy would be to say that all people of a certain country must pay
a tax per household. You can either be responsible for paying your
own tax or you can become a member of Jesus's household, His father will
adopt you, where Jesus will [has] paid the tax for you.

mark

md89mch@cc.brunel.ac.uk (Martin Howe) (05/29/90)

In article <May.23.23.30.44.1990.17304@athos.rutgers.edu>
qpliu@andy.princeton.edu (Quowong Peter Liu) writes:

# I've heard it on television religion, I've heard it on radio religion, I've
# heard it from Christians trying to convert me, but it makes no sense to me,
# and as it seems that it is quite fundamental to Christianity and that there
# are a lot of smart Christians in explaining how their religion works and
# convincing even more people to be Christians, here is what it is:

# "Jesus died for your sins", meaning that the Death (and the subsequent
# Miracle [of the resurrection I think he means]) of Jesus allows my sins to
# be forgiven. This idea is not self-evident to me []

The idea is that Jesus took our punishment for us by suffering death by
crucifixion. (God, of course, raised Him to life again - you cannot have God
leaving His Son dead !! I don't know if this subsequent resurrection has
anything IN ITSELF to do with our being forgiven).

God wanted to forgive us our sins. But it seems as if He has decided that the
guilty must still be punished. So He sent His Son, Jesus, to take our
punishment for us so that we wouldn't have to be punished.

In fact, there is a hymn that includes the line:
"There was no other good enough to pay the price of sin"

#Christians seem concentrate on are the gruesome details of the Crucifixion
The reason for this is to show how much He suffered for us. Lots of other
religions (and God in Old Testament times) required various sacrifices from
their followers, but God, in contrast loves us so that He sacrificed HIMSELF
for US (interesting contrast) ! 

********
# Christian who has Accepted Christ as Their Saviour (whatever that means).
                                                     ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
The phrase "Accepting Christ as your Saviour" refers to believing the
taking of our punishment, and probably includes practising what He preached us
to do.
********

Best regards,
-- 
  -   /|  . . JCXZ ! MOVSB ! SGDT ! iAPX ! | There are many kinds of revenge,but
  \`O.O' .    Martin Howe, Microelectronics|   none so sweet as Cats revenge !
  ={___}=     System Design MSc, Brunel U. |      - Hodge
   ` U '      Any unattributed opinions are mine -- Brunel U. can't afford them.

hedrick@geneva.rutgers.edu (05/29/90)

In a posting a week or so ago, Quowong Peter Liu asked how it can be
that Jesus' death allow our sins to be forgiven.

Oddly enough, this is one area in which there is no official doctrine.
It's sort of surprising in a way, since it's so basic.  The Church has
agreed on doctrines about the Incarnation, the Trinity, and many other
areas, but there is no single official doctrine of the atonement (the
technical word describing this question).

I find many of the common answers close, but not quite sufficient.
Most theories of the atonement are based on the concept that someone
has to be punished for our sins, and so God took the punishment on
himself.  But this makes God sound rather arbitrary.  Why does he have
to insist on punishment?  And if he does, how can he take it on
himself?

I think we have to start with the concept that sin creates a barrier
between us and God.  This would be true in any relationship.  If one
person offends another, it is going to create a barrier in their
relationship.  If the offense is a serious one between people who are
deeply involved with each other, the other party can't just say
"That's OK.  I'll ignore it."  Ultimately both parties are going to
have to share with each other the consequences of the offense,
including whatever guilt and anger it has produced, in order to come
back into relationship.  There is no way to undo the offense, but once
the consequences are voluntarily shared, it no longer separates.

In my opinion, Christ's death was God's way of sharing the
consequences of our sin.  By experiencing all of human life, including
suffering and death, these things can no longer separate us from God.

However Christ's death is not all there is to Christianity.  It's only
one aspect of the general conception of Christ as mediator.  The idea
is that God the eternal creator is too far from us to allow any kind
of meaningful personal relationship.  If we were to be able to see him
directly, we would simply be overwhelmed.  The Hebrew Scriptures take
it for granted that we'd die on the spot.  Christ makes God visible to
us in a form we can deal with.  To accept Christ as savior basically
means an intention to live as a disciple of Christ.  This means both
to try to live our lives in accordance with his teachings, and to
establish a personal relationship with God through him.  This
relationship is carried out through regular prayer, worship, and other
devotional activities.  In the long run, we accept that through this
relationship, God will come to lead us into living our lives the way
he wants.  Christ's death helps make such a relationship possible, by
removing a wall between us and God that would otherwise prevent it.
But it is by no means the major substance of the Christian life.  I
would say that living in union with Christ is.

lindborg@goat.cs.washington.edu (Jeff B Lindborg) (06/05/90)

In article <May.29.02.43.39.1990.27510@athos.rutgers.edu> tbvanbelle@watcgl.waterloo.edu (Terry Van Belle) writes:
>In article <May.23.23.30.44.1990.17304@athos.rutgers.edu> qpliu@andy.princeton.edu (Quowong Peter Liu) writes:
>>``Jesus died for your sins,'' meaning that the Death (and the
>>subsequent Miracle) of Jesus allows my sins to be forgiven.
>>this idea is not self-evident to me, and what Christians seem
>>concentrate on is the gruesome details of the Crucifixion and not why
>>such an act causes the sins of a Christian who has Accepted Christ as
>>Their Saviour (whatever that means).
>
>It means that although we deserve hell as punishment for our sins,

Do we?
You hear this all the time (I did, my entire life) but have you ever realy
thought it through?  God created man (an argument could be made that we
are nothing but pets He created out of bordom) and gave him "free will".
Now free will implies a choice.  Unfortunatly if you are unfortuante enough
to be raised nonchristian or are not able/willing to believe in the god 
who supposedly created you then you are punished by being sent to hell to
suffer for all eternity.  This seem fair/just/compasionate to me!
Why do you consider this our "just deserts?"

>Jesus has died instead, and thus, we are spared from hell if we want.

If we are able.  Some people just cannot make their minds believe in the
myth of a god, no matter how badly they want to.

>You can think of it as a fantastically large debt we have run up which
>Jesus has offered to pay instead.  Remember, part of Christian doctrine
>is that he not only was crucified, but also went to hell for a time
>(wherever that is).

Not quite right.  If you run this down he did not go to hell "proper" rather
a sort of "holding tank" refered to in the NFS as "Hades"... a bit of a
difference.

>To accept Christ as your saviour is to admit that:
>1) your sins form a huge barrier between you and God, which you are 
>   adding to daily,
>2) the eventual result of this barrier is hell,
>3) there is no way for you to get rid of this barrier, except by allowing
>   Jesus to do it.

Or coming to the realization that God is, indeed, a fantasy.  Christianity
is perpetuated by fear and I think this post only strengthens that idea.
Fear of hell/punishment/death/satan(tm)/....   If there were no provision 
for escaping "death" (through heaven) then Christianity would have died
long ago.

>At least, that's how I always understood it.

Probably this is how you were raised to believe it.  I was.  If you tell a
small child that the sun revolved around the earth... what do you think they
will believe?

>>qpliu@phoenix.princeton.edu
>>qpliu@usc.pppl.gov
>
>Terry Van Belle
>tbvanbelle@cgl.waterloo.edu

Jeff B Lindborg.

Email me, I can help you get over your feelings of superstition and fear.

sorenson@uunet.uu.net (Kerry Sorenson) (06/05/90)

In article <May.23.23.30.44.1990.17304@athos.rutgers.edu>
qpliu@andy.princeton.e
du (Quowong Peter Liu) writes:
>``Jesus died for your sins,'' meaning that the Death (and the
>subsequent Miracle) of Jesus allows my sins to be forgiven.
>this idea is not self-evident to me, and what Christians seem
>concentrate on is the gruesome details of the Crucifixion and not why
>such an act causes the sins of a Christian who has Accepted Christ as
>Their Saviour (whatever that means).

The idea that Jesus died for our sins has a close parallel 
in Eastern religion/philosophy.  In "Autobiography of a Yogi"
(available in most bookstores)  Paramahansa Yoganada relates how
his guru, Sri Yukteswar burned many of the sins of his disciples
in the fire of a severe fever.

A highly advanced guru is able to minimize the physical
and mental troubles of his disciples by assuming a part of their
karmic burdens.  Yoganada writes, "A guru's work in the 
world is to alleviate the sorrows of mankind, whether 
through spiritual means or intellectual counsel or 
will power or physical transfer of disease...By 
putting on the ailments of others, a yogi can
satisy, for them, the karmic law of cause and effect."
(see pages 235-237)

In line with this, I would argue that by taking upon us
the name of Christ, that we become his disciples and he our
guru, and he thereby assumes part of our karmic burdens.

Kerry Sorenson

sorenson@cadence.com

ondria@nyquist.bellcore.com (Ondria Wasem 21332) (06/05/90)

In article <May.23.23.30.44.1990.17304@athos.rutgers.edu> you write:
|> i've heard it on television religion, i've heard it on radio religion,
|> i've heard it from Christians trying to convert me, but it makes no
|> sense to me, and as it seems that it is quite fundamental to
|> Christianity and that there are a lot of smart Christians in
|> explaining how Their religion works and convincing even more people to
|> be Christians, here is what it is:
|> ``Jesus died for your sins,'' meaning that the Death (and the
|> subsequent Miracle) of Jesus allows my sins to be forgiven.
|> this idea is not self-evident to me, and what Christians seem
|> concentrate on is the gruesome details of the Crucifixion and not why
|> such an act causes the sins of a Christian who has Accepted Christ as
|> Their Saviour (whatever that means).
|> 
|> qpliu@phoenix.princeton.edu
|> qpliu@usc.pppl.gov

The first level of understanding of this Christian "motif" is that by
repenting and believing on Jesus and all that He did for us (born of a
virgin, died on the cross, resurrected, healings, etc.), we are
granted everlasting life in the hereafter, as well as a measure of
peace and joy in our present state in the physical world.  This is all
quite true, but a confused, "doesn't make sense" feeling can remain,
because with our physical brains, we are unable to truly understand
what it will be like to be solely spirit without flesh, or what God
really is, or how we can be truly close to Him.  It also doesn't
answer many of the questions of how, in one's daily life, one takes
part in the "body of Christ," or of what one's relationship with God
at this very moment really is.

Another level of understanding helps me in my daily walk with the
Lord.  First of all, it's written that God's words are spirit (John
6:63), so I try to look for a spiritual meaning in them.  By a
spiritual meaning, I mean something to do with my relationship with
God, others who seek God, and others who do not seek God, as these
relationships stand now, in time, as I live.  I emphasize
"relationships," not conditions.  It's not material wealth or poverty,
or physical health or sickness, that matters, if God's words are truly
SPIRIT.  I trust in God to take care of the hereafter, but since I
cannot understand it, I work on my present relationship with God,
knowing that in doing so, God will take me in when I die.

So now, my current thoughts on "Jesus died for your sins":  What is
spiritual death as opposed to physical death?  Spiritual death is a
separation from God, a lack of understanding and knowledge of God, or
being "dead in sin."  What is sin?  Sin is a turning away from God, or
disobedience, whether in thought or action.  It is seeking spiritual
death, rather than spiritual life.  Finally, who is Jesus?  Of course,
historically Jesus was God in the flesh walking the earth.  Presently,
He is our "Wonderful Counsellor," "Almighty God," "Prince of Peace,"
"Everlasting Father," and even more.(Isaiah 9:6)  We cannot deal
directly with history, nor can we, with our small minds, understand
God.  However, recall that "... ye are the body of Christ, and members
in particular."(I Cor. 12:27)  This of course refers to those who are
for God, not against Him.  So, "Jesus died for your sins" means that
the body of Christ, being God's people, die due to sin.  That is, when
you and I sin, we are immediately separated from God and become
spiritually dead, the body of Christ dying.  Fortunately, by believing
on Jesus, we, the body of Christ can be resurrected just as He was.
As it says in John 5, he who believes on Jesus is granted everlasting
life.  Spiritually speaking again, life is a close relationship with
God, an understanding and knowledge of God, and being "dead to sin."
This spiritual life brings one great peace and strength here and now,
not just after death.

To sum up, Jesus didn't only die to grant us salvation and everlasting
life after our deaths, if we believe, but also to save us and comfort
us while we live, and to help us to understand the cycles of our
relationship with Him throughout our lives.  His death is warning to
us as to what will happen when we sin (spiritual death), but His
resurrection gives us assurance that by our repentance and faith, He
will return us to spiritual life.

Praise Jesus!

Ondria J. Wasem
ondria@nyquist.bellcore.com

cms@dragon.uucp (06/09/90)

[This continues a discussion on the necessity of Jesus' dying for our
sins, originally started by Quowong Peter Liu.  A response from
Jeff Lindborg suggested that it would be unfair for God to condemn
someone because they were raisd nonchristian or are not able/willing
to believe in God as described by Christianity.  --clh]

 Actually, in the Catholic view, if you have been raised a non-Christian, but
you are a good person, then you are saved by what we call baptism by desire. 
That is to say, you don't know Christ, but your heart and mind yearn for God;
therefore, you are saved.  From my conversations with Baptists, I gather at
least the Baptists reject this view.  I'm not privy to the opinions of other
Protestant groups.

> Or coming to the realization that God is, indeed, a fantasy.  Christianity
> is perpetuated by fear and I think this post only strengthens that idea.
> Fear of hell/punishment/death/satan(tm)/....   If there were no provision 
> for escaping "death" (through heaven) then Christianity would have died
> long ago.  [more from Jeff Lindborg --clh]

 The Jonathan Edwards hellfire-and-brimstone types surface from time to time. 
The idea is that we are saved by the love of God.  God loved us so much that he
chose to embrace human suffering; he does not use human suffering as a tool to
punish, necessarily; for more on this theme, read the Book of Job.  In the end,
Job repents in sack cloth and ashes *not* of his own sins but rather his

attitude towards human suffering.  Previously, he had thought all human
suffering was the result of sin; he now understood that God's ways are not our
ways, his thoughts not our thoughts, yet God is the one who always with us. 
God embraced human suffering in Jesus Christ.  In this sense, the four Gospels
of Jesus Christ are the sequel to the Book of Job, more than any other book in
the Bible.  The forgiveness of our sins comes from the action of God loving us
in a tangible way.  Remember, in the Old Testament, the act of "remembering" by
God is the causation of an event.  God speaks and it is so.  The Lord
"remembered" Sarah and she conceived in her womb.  God speaks, "let there be
light," and it is so.  God loves humanity, in joy and in sorrow; John the
Baptist came neither eating nor drinking and people said he was possessed; the
Son of Man came eating and drinking, and people say, behold, a glutton and
drunkard; yet wisdom is justified by all her children.  The act of God loving
humanity is expressed in the joyful birth, joyful life, teachings, suffering,
Passion, death, and resurrection of Jesus of Nazareth.  Jesus lived life to the
fullest and this is way God loved humanity to the fullest.

 To say, Jesus died on the Cross for our sins, is God's way of telling us, we
are forgiven because God understands us; the act of God understanding us, as
one day we shall fully understand God, is the act of God forgiving us.  God
understands and forgiveness is so.

 I'm not a theologian; others may be able to put it better.  I love Jesus
because Jesus loves me.  Let me put it this way.  I'm lifting this from someone
else.  When we see Jesus dying on the Cross, who is Jesus looking at?  My
priest, in response to this question (when he said later he should have known
better), said that Jesus is looking at God saying "humanity is okay."  Wrong! 
Jesus Christ dying on the Cross is rather looking at humanity and saying,
"God's okay."


                                   Sincerely,

	        	 _///_ //  SPAWN OF A JEWISH       _///_ //
      _///_ //         <`)=  _<<     CARPENTER   _///_ //<`)=  _<<
    <`)=  _<<	 _///_ // \\\  \\   \\ _\\\_   <`)=  _<<    \\\  \\
       \\\  \\ <`)=  _<<             >IXOYE=('>   \\\  \\
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GO AGAINST THE FLOW!                \\\  \\ A Real Live Catholic in Georgia

p.s.  For those queries regarding my fish, take a closer look.  The fish in the
      middle, labeled IXOYE, is swimming "against the flow."

      Thank you for your attention.

Cindy Smith

lae@io.UUCP (Larry Enos) (06/09/90)

In his comments on the death and resurrection of our Lord, Jeff Lindborg says:

"Or coming to the realization that God is, indeed, a fantasy.  Christianity
is perpetuated by fear and I think this post only strengthens that idea.
Fear of hell/punishment/death/satan(tm)/....   If there were no provision
for escaping "death" (through heaven) then Christianity would have died
long ago."

As an unbeliever, you do not understand that it is more than mere fear
of death that motivates true Christians to follow the Lord.  For the
"eternal life" He promises to those who believe in Him not just an
unending human life, but, in fact, His own life.  When you turn to
Jesus and believe in Him, you allow Him to deposit His very life, the
eternal, uncreated life of God, into your human spirit.  In this way,
you become a "son of God" and brother of Christ.  Then, after you
receive this gift of life, your comission is to:
(1) nurture the divine life in your spirit, so that it may grow to
maturity within you. (i.e., spread throughout your whole
being--spirit, soul, and body), and 
(2) testify to others about Jesus, so that they might also receive His life.

The Gospel of John describes the matter of the divine life
particularly clearly.  For example, the Lord says: "I am the way, the
reality (truth), and the life"; and again: "I am come that they might
have life, and have it more abundantly."  

The Lord's death and resurrection testifies of the power of His divine
life to overcome all negative things, including death.  This is the "eternal
life" that the Lord has given to us who have believed in Him.  Praise Him!