dyer@spdcc.com (Steve Dyer) (05/29/90)
> [I'd be happy to add a paragraph on other traditions if someone would > like to supply it. But do Catholics and Orthodox really "church > shop"? This would seem antithetical to those traditions. --clh] Speaking as someone coming out of the Roman Catholic tradition, it would be pretty hard to imagine a serious Catholic "shopping" seriously among other Christian sects. I always was puzzled when Protestant friends told me of their investigations of churches outside their denominations. Even shopping around for a particular Catholic community in which one feels comfortable, while it's certainly done, doesn't strike me as the norm. I have the impression that most Catholics go to Church in the community in which they live. This may reflect a certain common cultural base, but I think it also reflects the centrality of the Mass in Catholic worship. To the extent you can stretch this analogy (admittedly not very far), it doesn't make sense to "shop" when the same "product" is everywhere. :-) -- Steve Dyer dyer@ursa-major.spdcc.com aka {ima,harvard,rayssd,linus,m2c}!spdcc!dyer dyer@arktouros.mit.edu, dyer@hstbme.mit.edu [About being puzzled by Protestant "church shopping", note that we don't take the boundaries between denominations as seriously as you might think. For Romans Catholics, unity of the Church is reflected in unity of the organization and hierarchy. Thus leaving the Roman Catholic church is a very serious business indeed. For Protestants, the one holy, catholic and apostolic Church is the mystical body of Christ, which includes all of the denominations as various parts of the Body. Most Protestants probably think of differences between denominations much as you would differences between "rites". Many Protestants certainly have grave suspicions of other Protestant groups, but those suspicions are because of actual differences in faith or practice, not simple organizational boundaries. --clh]
cms@gatech.edu (05/29/90)
In article <May.24.00.47.17.1990.21125@athos.rutgers.edu>, emory!dragon!cms@gatech.edu writes: > emory!dragon!cms > > [I'd be happy to add a paragraph on other traditions if someone would > like to supply it. But do Catholics and Orthodox really "church > shop"? This would seem antithetical to those traditions. --clh] Perhaps not, as a rule, but I'd like to say that over 60% of the married members of my church, Saint Bede's Episcopal, are "mixed marriages", i.e., Protestant-Catholic. One other addition: Certain Prostant groups are equally opposed to "church shopping" like die-hard Baptists and Church of Christ, among whom I'm personally acquainted with members. In fact, I know a former minister of the Church of Christ who was told to leave on the grounds that he suggested in his sermons that Christians of other denominations might be saved. Not even Catholics are *that* bad....:-). I married a Protestant myself whence my inclusion among Anglican Catholics (at least initially; I have more important reasons for staying now). Yet you included them in your list, if memory serves. Don't worry about posting this; just a personal reaction. I'll draw up some descriptions for you and e-mail them to you. I have friends who are former Protestants who have become Catholics; many of them love Mary as much as I do. In fact, a former Baptist leads the Rosary at a local Roman Catholic church every Sunday; she has a leadership role in the Legion of Mary. The implication in your posting seemed to me that, while Catholics sometimes become Protestants, the reverse is not true. Tell me: Since Catholics frown on Catholics becoming Protestants, is it not equally true that Protestants frown upon Protestants becoming Catholics? This isn't meant as a flame, but, this attitude reminds me of the shock a white father expressed on the television show "The White Shadow" upon learning that a black boy, who wanted to date his white daughter, was experiencing difficulty with his family and friends who looked down on him for dating a white girl as if doing so were beneath him. People were "talking" about him and it bothered him. Since you assumed she was Protestant, you also automatically assumed she would show no interest in a Catholic church. That kind of bothered me, that's all. Please don't take offense at my remarks. It something of a sensitive issue with me and I think I'm going to considerably tone down my recent fanning of the flames, which I'm not sure have been either useful or beneficial to the discussion. However, this is a Protestant nation and it struck me as kind of a majority-condescending attitude. Please forgive me if I'm mistaken. The Rev. Charles King once remarked: The first step in solving a problem is first to admit that the problem exists. I'm somewhat prejudiced against Protestants. I grew up believing Catholics were in the majority (which we are, worldwide) and it was something of a shock to me to learn that, in the United States, we're in the minority. Thus, many of my own remarks lately seemed to me to be somewhat majority-condescending towards Protestants. It's a common Catholic attitude (a belief and an attitude) that we are the True Church and, one day, all the little Protestant churches will return to the loving folds of the Mother Church. When Catholics pray for unity, that's often what we have in mind. Episcopal Ecumenism is much more attractive to me. -- emory!dragon!cms [Again, I certainly know that Protestants sometimes become Catholics. I know people who have done so. However realistically, I doubt that this is what the writer was interested in. People who change between the major families, i.e. Protestant, Roman Catholic, and Orthodox, normally have specific reason for doing so, and have thought about it for some time. I don't know of any cases where it's done as part of the typical "church shopping" which one does when moving into a new community. Furthermore, we've had discussions about specific Catholic and Orthodox views in this group. It's unlikely that any paragraph I would write would have given information about the Catholic church that wasn't already well known to our readers. However as a matter of principle I'll be happy to add a description if somebody writes me a brief one. --clh]
moy@acf4.nyu.edu (Gloria Moy) (05/29/90)
I recently switched churches and it took me a while to do so. I'd been going to
the same church for the past 20+ years and started to feel that the church was not meeting my needs and feel out of place. There had been another church that I
had attended a couple of times called Calvary Baptist Church on W57 street in
Manhattan, NYC. Well, to make a long story as short as possible... I started
going to Calvary because my friends from school were going there. I have since
made the switch and have gotten involved in other activities in the church.
Also this church believes in Christ's birth, ressurection and the fact that He WILL come again someday. I was also impressed by the fact that altar calls are made every service for those needing salvation or prayer.
Whatever decision you make, I will be praying for you that it is a decision
that God has lead you to make.
Also, if you want to come worship at Calvary Baptist Church, feel free to
e-mail me or call me at(212) 998-3504 anyday between 12noon and 6pm.
be well.
-gloria
================================================================================Gloria Moy
e-mail moy@acf4.nyu.edu
sre@cs.rochester.edu (Sherry Ellington) (05/29/90)
In article <May.24.00.47.17.1990.21125@athos.rutgers.edu> emory!dragon!cms@gatech.edu writes: >[Sherry Ellington asked for guidance on where to begin looking among >the large number of churches. I gave an answer based on the >assumption that she was looking for a Protestant church. --clh] > For the record, I'm just a person that has a deep desire to know where God would have me and what he would have me know as truth. I've been praying and searching. I'm not catholic but my son joined that faith 4 years ago and is now studying at the Holy Cross Abbey to become a priest. I've been attending a protestant church. In this process of searching I've found many individuals who are in the same boat. People who seem to get overwhelmed with all the creeds, doctrines, and churches out there. Perhaps, Edgar A Guest put it well in one of his poems on Religion - he states it doesn't matter the rite, creed, or church but how we live on earth and display God's love to one another. Sherry Ellington
u-gclapp%albion@cs.utah.edu (Glenn Clapp) (06/07/90)
In article <May.29.03.34.48.1990.2430@athos.rutgers.edu> cci632!sre@cs.rochester.edu (Sherry Ellington) writes: >For the record, I'm just a person that has a deep desire to know >where God would have me and what he would have me know as truth. >Edgar A Guest put it well in one of his poems on Religion - >he states it doesn't matter the rite, creed, or church but how >we live on earth and display God's love to one another. > > Sherry Ellington I too, went-a-lookin, and I tried many denominations, but all had the same politics (that's right, politics) about one church or denomination being "right" and others being "wrong." I finally settled on a Christian Fellowship church which is non-denominational, and devoid of such politics. The church SIMPLY worships Christ the Lord and Praises his Name and believes in His Word. That's all, you don't need anything more, no tradition, no rituals other than communion. Christ never said that we needed to have ritual or politics. I think the K.I.S.S principal holds true to Christianity. So many people get so caught up in the *extra* stuff, that they forget to praise the Lord and follow His Word. GBY Glenn [I'm pleased to say that I've never run into a Protestant denomination that says it has a monopoly on truth. (I've said specfically Protestant in order to avoid the rather special problems of Roman Catholics and Mormons. While they do not actually believe that they have a monopoly on truth, they do believe that their respective organizations have a special status of some kind.) What I have run into is people who believe that certain specific ideas are critical to Christianity, and that those who deny them are in spiritual danger of one sort or another. In my opinion this should not be confused with denominational politics. Someone who believes that the idea of inerrant Scripture is going to look askance at the "liberal" churches, not because he thinks his denomination is better, but because they have given up ideas that he considers essential to Christianity. Similarly, someone who believes that in Christ there is no male or female is going to find it unacceptable for churches to deny full participation for women. Both of these stances seem perfectly appropriate for those with those basic beliefs. There's a difficult balance to strike here. While I strongly encourage respect for Christians of differing perspectives, I do not suggest that it should be achieved by ceasing to care about fidelity to Scripture (or Tradition, if you're Catholic). I don't know anything about your denomination in particular, so I'm not criticizing it. However there is a tendency in some groups to consider their own essential ideas to be simply the Gospel, and everyone else's to be denominational politics. This is narrowness of the most dangerous sort, because it isn't recognized as narrowness. --clh]
kstehm@pyrnj.pyramid.com (Kevin J. Stehm) (06/07/90)
The question for finding a church was answered for me in a ... ready? ... A NON-DENOMINATIONAL CHURCH! Calary Chapel to be exact. Christianity is suffering from a bad case of "I'm of Luther." or "I'm of Peter." I think it is human nature to want to join a team but, with the Lord, we must solo together. I don't like people sticking a stereotype on me because of a church I attend (although that may have already happened!). Likewise, I prefer NOT know where a person is from because of stereotypes I may harbor (lurking, insidious and silent)! Honestly, all of my energy goes into just being conformed to the image of Jesus. Love is a full time job. And, in spite of MY theology, I find that He is still able to work with me! So I vote "YEA" to Non-denoms. Thanks, I feel better now! Kevin J. Stehm
credmond@watmath.waterloo.edu (Chris Redmond) (06/09/90)
In article <Jun.7.00.51.08.1990.24507@athos.rutgers.edu> telesci!kstehm@pyrnj.pyramid.com (Kevin J. Stehm) writes: >The question for finding a church was answered for me in a ... ready? ... > >Christianity is suffering from a bad case of "I'm of Luther." or "I'm of >Peter." I think it is human nature to want to join a team but, with the Lord, >we must solo together. I don't like people sticking a stereotype on me >because of a church I attend (although that may have already happened!). >Likewise, I prefer NOT know where a person is from because of stereotypes >I may harbor (lurking, insidious and silent)! >So I vote "YEA" to Non-denoms. It's great that Kevin has found the place for him, but I think it would be wise to be cautious in praising "non-denominational" local churches as the answer. In fact I think it would be wise to be cautious in using the label "non-denominational". If a congregation is the only one in a small town, or on a campus, then perhaps "non-denominational" is a fair label for it: the people involved come from many denominational backgrounds, but suspend their differences for the sake of making the group work. On the other hand, when there are Presbyterians, Baptists and Lutherans already nearby, a group calling itself "non-denominational" is under serious suspicion of being just another denomination. This can happen on a large scale: one of the major Protestant groups in the United States, the one whose local churches are typically called "First Christian" (anybody know the corporate title?), was started in the 19th century by an idealistic clergyman who thought he and his followers would transcend denominations and just teach "the gospel of Jesus". It doesn't work that way. CAR