harry@atmos.washington.edu (Harry Edmon) (07/08/90)
In article <Jun.26.23.19.10.1990.12614@athos.rutgers.edu> mmh@cs.qmw.ac.uk (Matthew Huntbach) writes: > Veneration of saints arises from true fear of God. > When we ask a saint to pray for us, we join those recorded in > scripture, who feel unworthy to approach God directly. Jesus > certainly approved of this action as a sign of taking God > seriously. > > I feel that some forms of Protestantism do reduce God, and > thereby deny Him the respect due, which we are commanded to > give. My response as a Lutheran is that praying to saints instead of God can deny Jesus the respect due Him, since it reduces His work of reconciliation between God and Humanity. Certainly by ourselves we are unworthy to approach God. But through Jesus' death and resurrection we are worthy. Certainly the saints are valuable as examples, but praying to them to me seems unnecessary. In addition, praying to saint can result in abuses such as the elevation of saints to demi-gods in some areas of the world. Certainly this is not the position of the Roman Catholic Church, but it does happen. -- Harry Edmon INTERNET: harry@atmos.washington.edu (206) 543-0547 UUCP: uw-beaver!atmos.washington.edu!harry Dept of Atmospheric Sciences, AK-40 University of Washington
cms@dragon.uucp (07/10/90)
In article <Jul.8.00.00.03.1990.3948@athos.rutgers.edu>, harry@atmos.washington.edu (Harry Edmon) writes: > In article <Jun.26.23.19.10.1990.12614@athos.rutgers.edu> mmh@cs.qmw.ac.uk (Matthew Huntbach) writes: > >> Veneration of saints arises from true fear of God. >> When we ask a saint to pray for us, we join those recorded in >> scripture, who feel unworthy to approach God directly. Jesus >> certainly approved of this action as a sign of taking God >> seriously. I think what the author is saying here is similar to the parable Jesus told about the Pharisee and the tax collector. Briefly, the Pharisee, at the Temple, prayed thanking God that he was righteous and not like that awful tax collector over there, whereas the tax collector declined even to approach the Temple, but rather beat his breast, lamenting he was a sinner unworthy to approach God, begging for forgiveness because he was not righteous but a sinner. Jesus declared that the tax collector was more righteous in God's eyes. (Luke 18:9) >> I feel that some forms of Protestantism do reduce God, and >> thereby deny Him the respect due, which we are commanded to >> give. > > My response as a Lutheran is that praying to saints instead of God > can deny Jesus the respect due Him, since it reduces His work of > reconciliation between God and Humanity. Certainly by ourselves we > are unworthy to approach God. But through Jesus' death and > resurrection we are worthy. Certainly the saints are valuable as > examples, but praying to them to me seems unnecessary. In addition, > praying to saint can result in abuses such as the elevation of saints > to demi-gods in some areas of the world. Certainly this is not the > position of the Roman Catholic Church, but it does happen. I have watched many Protestant televangelists encourage people to send in their prayer requests so that groups of Christians can pray for them. In Protestant churches, there are prayer request cards abounding. In the Episcopal church, Daughters of the King is one such group which prays for people's various needs based on prayer request cards or verbal requests. Whenever you send in a prayer request card, or ask someone else to pray for you, you are violating the very precept you cite above, that of approaching God directly, instead of indirectly through someone else. In fact, I think prayer request organizations are slightly dangerous in that they have an alarming tendency to reduce prayer to God to the old assembly line formerly present in the Temple -- buy a couple of pigeons, pre-certified by Temple priests as clean and acceptable to God, carry them a few hundred feet into the Temple, watch a priest slaughter them, sacrifice over. At least prayer requests don't cost anything, as pigeons used to, but the concept is the same. People may even decline to pray as often to God themselves, thinking: All those good people are praying for me. At least, when Catholics pray to saints, they have to keep up the prayers. The famous Saint Jude prayer (never known to fail, but I won't repeat the novena here) requires you to maintain your prayer to God with Jude regularly for a specific period. This is common in prayers to saints. (A novena is regular prayer repeated over a period of nine days; a Rosary novena is repeated over 27 days for reasons I won't go into here.) Note: Catholic prayer request organizations are just as common as Protestants prayer request organizations, so I'm not singling out either group for criticism. At least when Catholics talk to saints (I'm going to use this phrase more often as it seems to cause less confusion than the Catholic usage of the term "pray" which Protestants either refuse to accept or ignore) they are communing directly with God with a fellow Christian friend. Thus, I respond that prayer requests violate your precepts more seriously than the Catholic practice of praying to saints. When we approach the saints we are giving Jesus the honor he is due by showing respect for Him as well as those who follow Him. Once, on a street corner in Atlanta (you have to see it in Atlanta to appreciate it), I saw a preacher with a guitar strapped across his back telling his life story. He concluded his testimony of faith with this: "It happened to me, it can happen to you." When we talk to the saints we are talking with people "it happened to." As it happened to them, it can happen to us. Just as you might approach a friend you know to be Christian to help you, we approach Christian friends who live in the Kingdom of God to help us, both those in Heaven and on Earth. Or as Jesus was wont to say, "The King of God is within you." > Harry Edmon INTERNET: harry@atmos.washington.edu -- Sincerely, Cindy Smith _///_ // SPAWN OF A JEWISH _///_ // _///_ // <`)= _<< CARPENTER _///_ //<`)= _<< <`)= _<< _///_ // \\\ \\ \\ _\\\_ <`)= _<< \\\ \\ \\\ \\ <`)= _<< >IXOYE=('> \\\ \\ \\\ \\_///_ // // /// _///_ // _///_ // emory!dragon!cms <`)= _<< _///_ // <`)= _<< <`)= _<< \\\ \\<`)= _<< \\\ \\ \\\ \\ GO AGAINST THE FLOW! \\\ \\ A Real Live Catholic in Georgia
ckp@grebyn.com (Checkpoint Technologies) (07/13/90)
Two questions:
1) Is it proper for a Christian to pray for another person?
2) Is it proper for a Christian to ask another Christan to pray for
them?
The Catholic anwer to both of these questions is that it's not only ok
for a Christian to pray for others, it's virtually essential.
A third question has come to mind:
3) What, exactly, does a Christian DO when he is "praying for" someone
else?
I would be interested in seeing what y'all think about these questions.
chris
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