cms@dragon.uucp (07/30/90)
I found the following in the Mishnah, Third Division, Nashim ('Women'),
Sotah 9:15 (near the end):
"With the footprints of the Messiah's presumption shall increase and dearth
reach its height; the vine shall yield its fruit but the wine shall be costly;
and the empire shall fall into heresy and there shall be none to utter reproof.
The council-chamber shall be given to fornication. Galilee shall be laid waste
and Gablan shall be made desolate; and the people of the frontier shall go
about from city to city with none to show pity on them. The wisdom of the
Scribes shall become insipid and they that shun sin shall be deemed
contemptible, and truth shall nowhere be found. Children shall shame the
elders, and the elders shall rise up before the children, for the son
dishonoureth the father, the daughter riseth up against her mother, the
daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law: a man's enemies are the men of his
own house. The face of this generation is as the face of a dog, and the son
will not be put to shame by his father. On whom can we stay ourselves? -- on
our father in heaven.
"R. Phineas b. Jair says: Heedfulness leads to cleanliness, and cleanliness
leads to purity, and purity leads to abstinence, and abstinence leads to
holiness, and holiness leads to humility, and humility leads to the shunning of
sin, and the shunning of sin leads to saintliness, and saintliness leads to
[the gift of] the Holy Spirit, and the Holy Spirit leads to the resurrection of
the dead. And the resurrection of the dead shall come through Elijah of
blessed memory. Amen."
That passage could have written by a closet Christian. Compare
Matthew 10:21-25, 34-37. The verse cited in both the New Testament and the
Mishnah are from Micah 7:6. Does anyone know whether this verse was written
before or after the Incarnation/Crucifixion/Resurrection? in that general
time-period? Unfortunately, I do not have the Gemara for that passage. Is
there someone out there who does? By the by, are there any Christian
commentaries on the Talmud? I'm sure there are not, per se, but I was looking
for something on the order of: the Talmud says X, Paul says Y. I'm curious as
to when the Talmud is complements/contradicts Christian beliefs and practices.
I've done a bit of this on my own and I'd like a guide, if possible. Thanks.
Certain New Testament ideas could have been gleaned from Mishnaic sources.
Perhaps what I'm trying to discover is if this passage (among others) is a
commentary on New Testament ideas or whether New Testament ideas are commentary
on Mishnaic ideas (or both). The idea that the son will not be shamed by the
father can be interpreted two ways: God will not allow the Messiah to be
crucified or God will glorify the Messiah. Obviously, the Jewish
interpretation would be the former.
Since the Mishnah was written between 200 B.C. and 200 A.D. and the early
Christians were Jewish who worshipped in the same synagogues as the Jews who
rejected the Messiah, is it possible that any Jewish Christian Rabbis or
Pharisees (like the Apostle Paul) contributed in any way to the Mishnah? In
other words, do any parts of the Mishnah contain commentary on Jewish laws and
ways by Jewish Christians and congruent with Jewish Christian beliefs and
practices? Are there any debates in the Mishnah that may reflect this
controversy?
--
Sincerely,
Cindy Smith
emory!dragon!cms
[There are a number of books about the relationship between
Christianity and Judaism. Most specifically about Paul. A standard
reference is William David Davies, "Paul and rabbinic Judaism",
Fortress Press, 1980. One of the most commonly cited references is
John Lightfoot, "A Commentary on the NT from the Talmud and
Hebraica.." This is not exactly current research, as Lightfoot lived
1602-1675, but it seems to be a large compendium, which is still
commonly cited. (I think I've got the right book. I'm at Rutgers
rather than at home. I looked through all the Lightfoot's in the
library catalog, and this seems the most likely.) More recently, Jews
have begun to participate in NT studies. One of the best results of
this is Schoeps' work "Paul", which gives the Jewish background for
most of Paul's teachings. If I've got the right book in the catalog,
the citation is Schoeps, Hans Joachim, "Paul; the theology of the
apostle in the light of Jewish religious h...", Westminster, 1961.
Davies is probably the standard place to start.
There are a few things in the Talmud that reflect debates with
Christians, but as far as I know the opinions of Christians were not
included. Of course this doesn't prevent some Christian writer from
having influenced Jewish opinion on some subject, any more than
Christians refuse to read books by Jewish authors now. But I think
the Talmud would not have cited Christian authorities directly.
--clh]YZKCU@cunyvm.bitnet (Yaakov Kayman) (08/06/90)
To Cindy Smith and all others: Please refrain from using the term "Jewish Christian," a term highly offensive to practicing Jews, and at the same time, self-contradictory by any truly Jewish definition. I direct your attention to my "What's in a Name?" posting to this list/newsgroup. You may ask the list's moderator about it if you never saw it. To mutual respect (which this term denies), Yaakov K. -------- Yaakov Kayman (212) 903-3666 City University of New York BITNET: YZKCU@CUNYVM "Lucky is the shepherd, and lucky his flock Internet: YZKCU@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU about whom the wolves complain" [This issue was discussed in great detail not long ago. I am passing on Yaakov's posting to remind readers of Jewish sensibilities on this issue. However I do not propose to reopen the discussion. I will allow authors of postings to follow their own conscience on this issue. If there are new readers who don't know what we're referring to, feel free to ask via Email. --clh]