stevep@cds591@cadence.com (Steve Peterson) (08/06/90)
In article <6569@tekcrl.LABS.TEK.COM>, daveh@tekcrl.LABS.TEK.COM (David Hatcher) writes: |stevep: |>When I read comments like these, I often wonder if those with views such as |>yours think that Adam and Eve were walking zombies, without *any* |>knowledge before they broke God's rule? | daveh: |I don't think *anyone* has claimed that they were walking zombies |with no knowledge at all. That as far as I'm concerned is not |at all what I was thinking when I wrote my post. stevep: I'm sorry. My writing style is somewhat "tongue-in-cheek". In person, with voice inflections and facial expressions, it would be more apparent that I VERY MUCH appreciate the chance to discuss Bible topics with you. stevep: |>Satan was successful in getting Eve to think that God was holding out |>on her, that she was losing out on something good, and that God was lying |>to her. daveh: |First off, I have never seen an argument that convinced me that |the snake was Satan. stevep: Have you considered what the writer was indicating about the identity of Satan: REV 12:9 The great dragon was hurled down--that ancient serpent called the devil, or Satan, who leads the whole world astray. He was hurled to the earth, and his angels with him. REV 20:2 He seized the dragon, that ancient serpent, who is the devil, or Satan, and bound him for a thousand years. daveh: |But I have read convincing Jewish literature that said that the |snake was a servant to God doing the will of God. stevep: Consider this scripture: 2CO 11:3 But I am afraid that just as Eve was deceived by the serpent's cunning, your minds may somehow be led astray from your sincere and pure devotion to Christ. Are you telling me that it was God's will that Eve was *deceived*? In regard to *what* was Eve decieved? My dictionary indicates that deceive means "to trick, to defraud, to mislead by a false statement". If this was God's will for this to happen, wouldn't that make him an accomplice to fraud? Also, If the serpent was doing God's will, why did God curse the serpent for what it/he had done? GEN 3:14 So the Lord God said to the serpent, "Because you have done this, "Cursed are you above all the livestock and all the wild animals! You will crawl on your belly and you will eat dust all the days of your life. daveh: |As a side note, I have always found it very interesting that the |3 wise men were from the Zoroastrian religion and held in such high |regard by Christianity. stevep: Agreed. Investigation into the identity of these 3 "wise" men shows that they were really astrologers. This practice is strongly disapproved in the Bible. Would God have led to the newborn Jesus persons whose practices He condemned? Matt. 2:1-16 shows that the start led the astrologers first to King Herod and then to Jesus and that Herod then sought to have Jesus killed. No mention is made that anyone other than the astrologers saw the star. After they left, God's angel warned Joseph to flee to Egypt to safeguard the child. Was that start a sign from God or was it from someone who was seeking to have God's Son destroyed? daveh: |Now, I don't think that God was "preventing" Adam and Eve from |enjoying all of those things in the way you presented. stevep: Once again, I'm sorry that my writing style is somewhat "tongue-in- cheek". daveh: |Rather I feel that the whole purpose of the so called fall was part of the |over all plan so that we could enjoy those attributes of being |human |that were not as yet open to Adam and Eve. This was a gift *from* |God |through Adam and Eve to ALL of humanity. |At this point I should let you know that to me the purpose of |Creation is so that God may have a means by which God may know and |experience it's own self. Knowing and experiencing the suffering |that seems to be an aspect of the human condition, along with the |compasson and understanding that plays along as an aspect of that |very same condition allows God a means to also experience and |know something that would otherwise fall out side of God's own |awarenss/experience, IMHO. stevep: David, you mention IMHO, meaning this is your opinion. Can you point out any scripture in the Bible that would indicate this? The Bible indicates that it is appropriate to reason on the Scriptures to come to conclusions: ACT 17:2 As his custom was, Paul went into the synagogue, and on three Sabbath days he reasoned with them from the Scriptures, ACT 17:11 Now the Bereans were of more noble character than the Thessalonians, for they received the message with great eagerness and examined the Scriptures every day to see if what Paul said was true. stevep: |>David, if I can help you in understanding more about this or any |>other subject, please let me know.... daveh: |Well, ya, I do have some more questions. You mean that Adam and |Eve knew and enjoyed the blessings and joy that are with in the |experience of bringing forth new life that happens when a new baby |is born. And that they also knew and experienced the joy and tribulations |of helping and watching that child grow into a adult. And that they |knew and experienced the bonding and closeness with that a child? stevep: Since they were, as of yet, without child, I would agree with you that they hadn't experienced that joy. Are you suggesting that Adam and Eve wouldn't have *ever* known how to make a baby unless the serpant had deceived them into breaking God's command prohibiting them from eating from one tree in the garden? Or that they had no desire? Even the animals knew how to do this.... GEN 1:28 God blessed them and said to them, "Be fruitful and increase in number; fill the earth and subdue it. Rule over the fish of the sea and the birds of the air and over every living creature that moves on the ground." daveh: |And that they also knew and and experienced the compassion one |feels towards the suffering of others? And that they also knew and |experienced the desire to help the suffering of others because of the |compassion that they were experiencing?How about the learning process |one goes through as they deal with a broken heart or the |death of a loved one? Did they know of that experience? stevep: Are you saying that you want others to suffer and die so that you can have some sort of learning experience? If it is a blessing from God that some suffer and die so that others can have a learning experience, why does the Bible call death "an enemy"? Why does the Bible indicate that God will in the future remove death, mourning, pain, and crying? If this was a *gift from God* in the garden of Eden, Is he some sort of "Indian giver"? (Just a joke :-) ) 1CO 15:26 The last enemy to be destroyed is death. REV 21:4 He will wipe every tear from their eyes. There will be no more death or mourning or crying or pain, for the old order of things has passed away." daveh: |There's a whole rainbow of things that I could point to that |were an unknown to Adam and Eve. That is, until the so called |fall occured. Yes, I agree with you in that they were not zombies. Yet |at the same |time, until the so called fall, I still feel that they did not know |the full spectrum of what it means to be human. I'm sorry, but even |with the examples that you gave, I see no evidance where you have shown |they they where fully awake to the full spectrum human |potentialties. stevep: Yes, there were a whole rainbow of things that were not known to Adam and Eve. But the things that they learned from being deceived into breaking God's brought on shame, suffering, death, grief, pain, crying, etc.... to not only themselves but also all their decendants. We were, as it were, sold into slavery to sin and death by our forefather Adam. It was by means of the ransom price that Jesus Christ paid by giving his life, that we have been been "released" from slavery to sin and death. I look forward to our continued discussion on this, as well as other topics... Best Regards..... -------- Steve Peterson stevep@cadence.com or ...!{sun,apollo,versatc,ucbcad,uunet}!cadence!stevep