vm0t+@andrew.cmu.edu (Vincent Paul Mulhern) (07/20/90)
First...who is clh and why does he comment on posts? a bboard
administrator or owner? Just curious...
About Jesus being human. I said in a post on 7/17 that Jesus isn't
human anymore. I still affirm that statement. What "Christian
doctrine" says He is still human? I fully recognize that, while on
earth, He was indeed human and God. But I do not think He still
posesses any characteristics which make Him human. He is not still
living on earth. He is not still experiencing the temptations He
experienced as a human. He doesn't need to perform any of the functions
we do to live (eat, sleep, etc.). He was humbled to be human, but now
he has been "un-humbled", i.e. exalted, and above all other names. He
now uses the authority which was always His to use, but which He did not
avail Himself of when here on earth.
Of course He still has His memories, and the experiences He went
through on the earth are still a part of Him. This is no mean claim,
either...it is a good thing that we have a high priest who understands
us. I think it is wrong to say that He is still human, though. Just
because He has been a human, we cannot say He still is. (There are many
people who have been thieves that aren't, anymore. And pregnant, sick,
etc.). What aspect of Jesus's BEING is there that is human? I really
cannot think of any. (And if someone can demonstrate otherwise, I'm
quite willing to admit to having misconceptions. But demonstrate
through God's word, and not just 'tradition'... ) I think He has
fulfilled all His responsibilities as a human, and is now His old
inhuman (no offense, Lord) self.
In Jesus,
-Vince Mulhern.
[I'm sending him the introduction to soc.religion.christian via email.
I'm not sure whether we have here simply a disagreement over
definitions. We certainly agree that there are great differences
between what people are like on earth and in heaven. If you're simply
pointing this out, then there's nothing wrong with what you're saying,
but you are using words in a nonstandard fashion. If you're saying
that after his resurrection Jesus was not the same sort of entity that
we will be after our resurrection (though of course in addition, he is
also fully God, which we aren't), then you are rejecting very basic
Christian doctrines. As moderator it's not my job to force any
beliefs on you, but I'd at least like to make sure you realize that
your position is not the typical Christian one.
First, let's look a Biblical terminology. There are many places where
Christ is referred to as a man, but in many cases it may be hard to
prove that his situation specifically after his resurrection is being
referred to. However I Tim 2:5 seems clear. It calls Christ Jesus a
man (the Greek is in fact anthropos, i.e. human) specifically in the
context of his redemptive role. See also I Cor 15. In case you are
thinking of saying that Christ after his resurrection is different
than we will be, I Cor 15 makes it clear that Paul envisioned our
resurrection as being the same sort as Christ's. See particularly
15:21.
Christian theology has followed the Biblical tradition. The basic
doctrinal standards also talk of Christ as a man. In some cases you
might try to argue that it was limited in time. E.g. the Nicene
Creed says of Christ "and was made man". It doesn't say "and
continued to be man forever", but that's certainly the way it has
generally be meant. Chalcedon clearly speaks of Christ as fully man
and fully God, and is referring to his nature in eternity, not just
something temporary.
I'd say most people use the term "human" to refer to both earthly
people and resurrected people. To distinguish them I'd use adjectives
such as "glorified".
--clh]vm0t+@andrew.cmu.edu (Vincent Paul Mulhern) (07/24/90)
I think I've been splitting hairs, more than disagreeing with
anything. I guess I see the resurrection (of Jesus and us as well) as
being a fundamental change in a "being's" nature. And the differences
between myself and Jesus are, well, hard to miss. But I'm not
considering that we're not headed for the same glorification. I guess I
was including "tendency to be fallible" in my definition of human, but
that's not quite right to do. Statistically, you can't dispute it, but
Jesus didn't blow it, and Adam wasn't designed to. (God saw that all
He'd made was good...)
I guess I just stagger at His awesome-ness. Originally, when
considering forgiveness for sins, (no pun intended) I was contrasting
Jesus's ability to forgive with ours...the difference exists in
practice, but not theory. Jesus wouldn't have told us to love one
another as He loves us unless we had the capacity to. I've just never
known anyone to live up to their capacity (myself included
emphatically). There sure is an observable difference between earthly
and glorified people!
-Vince Mulhern
clh: there hasn't been much talk about this, except for between you &
me. If you don't think it needs to be posted, that's fine. I wanted to
let you know I'm not weird...but I've maybe been imprecise. ("Do what I
mean, not what I say")JMS111@psuvm.psu.edu (Jenni Sheehey) (07/24/90)
In article <Jul.20.03.34.59.1990.17658@athos.rutgers.edu>, vm0t+@andrew.cmu.edu (Vincent Paul Mulhern) says: > About Jesus being human. I said in a post on 7/17 that Jesus isn't >human anymore. I still affirm that statement. What "Christian >doctrine" says He is still human? I fully recognize that, while on >earth, He was indeed human and God. But I do not think He still >posesses any characteristics which make Him human. He is not still >living on earth. He is not still experiencing the temptations He >experienced as a human. I think it is pointless for us (as mere humans) to discuss matters involving God and time. Do we imagine God to be held bound by the same restrictions (i.e. time continuity) as the rest of us? I think C.S. Lewis said it well in _Beyond_Personality_: This human life in God is from our point of view a particular point in the history of the world (from the year A.D one till the crucifixion ). We therefore imagfine it is also a period in the history of God's own existance. But God has no history. He is too completely and utterly real to have one. For, of course, to have a history means losing a part of your reality (because it has already slipped into the past) and not yet having another part (because it is still in the future): in fact having nothing but the tiny little present, which has gone before you can speak of it. Of course, C. S. Lewis (and myself (= ) is only human as well, and could therefore also be wrong about this, but when I think about it, It seems that this "makes more sense" than the other idea, although the idea that God is "in time" is easier to understand (since none of us have ever experienced being apart from time). I guess the real point is that God is *unchangable* and therefore could not have "once been" anything He is not still. --Jenni /-------------------------------------\ ******************************** | JMS111@PSUVM - Bitnet | * For nothing is impossible * | JMS111@PSUVM.psu.edu - Internet | * with God. * | These opinions are not the property | * * | or responsibility of Penn State or | * * | the Center for Academic Computing. | * (NIV) Luke 1:37 * \-------------------------------------/ ********************************
tp0x+@andrew.cmu.edu (Thomas Carl Price) (07/26/90)
>What Christian doctrine says that Jesus in still human? (Vince Mulhern)
You might want to read 1 Timothy 2:5, Vince.
Also Romans 6:5 tells us that Jesus Christ right now has the perfect nature
and constitution that all the saints will have at his return/their resurrection.If not, what is the meaning of calling Jesus "the first-begotten from the
dead"? (As 1 Cor 15:23 and elsewhere)
ps let there be no misunderstanding: there will still be individual differences
of ability and knowledge among the saints in the kingdom; these however are
distinct from the nature and constitution of perfection which all will sharemath1h3@jetson.uh.edu (07/26/90)
Vincent Paul Mulhern made some comments on Jesus's humanity, and questioned
whether Christ is still human. After reading a few exchanges between him
and our moderator, I'd like to comment on why Jesus's humanity is important
to us.
First, his humanity when he was here on earth is important to us, because
in his death on the cross, he atoned for our sins as our substitute. He
died as one of us, he lived and was tempted as one of us, and he lead a
holy life as one of us. All of this is important for our justification,
for God's law demands perfect holiness, and that we have no sin. Only
Christ, our substitute, can supply these. If he was not human, then he
could not substitute for us in this way.
Thus he called himself the 'Son of Man,' meaning, that he is the 'Seed'
promised to Adam and Eve, who crushed Satan with his heel, See particularly
Romans 12:5-19, particularly v. 19:
"For just as through the disobedience of one man the many
were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the one man the many
will be made righteous."
Similarly it is important that we believe he was (and is) true God
for that gives his sacrifice the value that enables it to atone for our sins.
All of this the church dealt with in its first few centuries. Thus the
Apostle's creed makes a point that Jesus was 'born of the virgin Mary', and
the Nicene Creed confesses that he was 'of one substance with the Father'
and 'only-begotten'. These creeds came into being because false teachers
rejected Christ's humanity, at one point, and his Godhead, at another.
That he is still 'true man' in his resurrected state is a comfort to
us, because we have a savior who is still one of us, who understands our
needs. This is also important to our belief that one day, we will also
rise from the dead, and have bodies like his. Finally, we should not let
his glorious nature lead us to think that he is not human, but rather this
should help us to comprehend how far we have fallen from our original,
created design.
Christ's humanity should serve as a guide for what
our humanity should be. Thus, 'Son of Man' also means that he is the 'New
Adam'. Also in Colossians 3:9,10 Paul writes: "Do not lie to each other,
since you have taken off your old self with its practices and have put on the
new self, which is being renewed in knowledge in the image of its Creator'.
Christ's humanity shows us the image of the Creator in which we are being
renewed. This putting on the new self is the same thing that Christ talked
about when he said, "unless a man is born again, he cannot enter the kingdom
of God," and "Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit gives birth to spirit."
In application, we might say that we should not excuse our sin, saying
we are 'only' human: that is an attitude that blames God for his creation.
Christ's humanity shows us that the humanity God created was in fact good.
Rather we should repent our sins, and ask God for Jesus' sake to forgive us.
David H. Wagner
A confessional Lutheran "Let us ever walk with Jesus
Follow his example pure,
Flee the world, which would deceive us
And to sin our souls allure.
Ever in his footsteps treading,
Body here, yet soul above,
Full of faith and hope and love,
Let us do the Father's bidding.
Faithful Lord, abide with me;
Savior, lead, I follow Thee.
"Let us gladly live with Jesus;
Since he's risen from the dead,
Death and grave must soon release us.
Jesus, Thou art now our Head,
We are truly thine own members;
Where Thou livest, there live we.
Take and own us constantly,
Faithful Friend, as Thy dear brethren.
Jesus, here I live to Thee,
Also there eternally.
--Sigismund von Birken, 1653
'Lasset uns mit Jesu Ziehen', v.1,4
Translation: J. Adam Rimbach, 1900
My opinions and beliefs are not likely to coincide with any held by
The University of Houston.vm0t+@andrew.cmu.edu (Vincent Paul Mulhern) (07/30/90)
I would like to concur to David Wagner's and Thomas Price's
explanations that Jesus is a human the way humans were meant to be, and
that He is and has been (and will continue to be) what we were supposed
to be all along. And I also recognize that when we die (an event I'm
looking forward to!) we will become as He is now.
-Vince "It still blows my mind" Mulhern.
P.S. Thanks, D. Wagner, for pointing out I Tim 2:5. It had never
caught my attention before.jow@pacbell.com (Jeff Westman) (07/30/90)
In article <Jul.26.01.49.53.1990.26541@athos.rutgers.edu> tp0x+@andrew.cmu.edu (Thomas Carl Price) writes: > >What Christian doctrine says that Jesus in still human? (Vince Mulhern) > > You might want to read 1 Timothy 2:5, Vince. Thomas, I think you are misinterpreting this verse, or perhaps I am mis- interpreting you. The verse you site refers to Jesus as the God-man. In the __context__, it is talking about the Mediator, the One who can understand our petitions. In Scripture, whenever there is a reference to Jesus in humanness (even when He was on earth), it always has some kind of reference to His human side, whether it be compassion, humility or whatever. References to Jesus as the Son of God or the Judge or coming King refer to His deity. In particular, check out Revelation where it talks about our King coming again (eg, Rev 2:19). Jesus was human and *IS* God. Having being human, he can intercede for us on behalf of the Father. -- Jeff
ckp@grebyn.com (Checkpoint Technologies) (07/30/90)
> About Jesus being human. I said in a post on 7/17 that Jesus isn't >human anymore. I still affirm that statement. What "Christian >doctrine" says He is still human? I fully recognize that, while on >earth, He was indeed human and God. But I do not think He still >posesses any characteristics which make Him human. He is not still >living on earth. He is not still experiencing the temptations He >experienced as a human. There are two points in time in which Jesus could have become "non-human," the Resurrection and the Ascension. After the Resurrection Jesus still appeared to have a human body. His disciples touched him and ate with him. Yes, he did some miraclulous things with his body after the Resurrection, but he also did many miraculous things with his body before the Resurrection, such as walking on water. So this certainly didn't make him less human, perhaps it made him more human. He spent less time in our midst after the Resurrection, but this also does not make him less human. So by all appearences (and how else can we guage his humaness) he was still human after the Resurrection. When Jesus Ascended into heaven, he rose into the sky and disapeared in a cloud of light (I don't have my Bible with me so I can't quote the exact words). And the angel said that Jesus would some day come back, just as we saw him leave. So it certainly seems to imply that Jesus would be back in human form. Exactly what form Jesus is in *now* (if you can ask that question of God) is hard to say. But the Catholic Church has always held that Jesus is *bodily* in heaven. This is certainly a glorified body, but glorified does not mean non-human -- in fact, it is this glorified bodily resurrected state that we all hope for. Furthermore, Jesus' physical body and blood are present on earth right now as we speak -- in the Tabernacle of every Catholic Church of the world. So Jesus even now, has a bodily existence, albeit in a sacramental form. Being human never prevented Jesus from being God, and being God certainly does not prevent him from being human -- even now. chris -- First comes the logo: C H E C K P O I N T T E C H N O L O G I E S / / \\ / / Then, the disclaimer: All expressed opinions are, indeed, opinions. \ / o Now for the witty part: I'm pink, therefore, I'm spam! \/
tp0x+@andrew.cmu.edu (Thomas Carl Price) (08/06/90)
It is claimed that 1 Tim 2:5 refers to Jesus as God-Man. Presumably other verses are interpreted as referring to Jesus as Man-God. Could somebody give me a clear scriptural basis for this notion of a schizophrenic Jesus? I mean no mockery in my word-choice. TP [We've had discussions of the Trinity recently enough that it may not make sense to begin a tutorial here. I'm going to send him privately copies of some postings about it that have appeared in the past, since this response suggests that TP probably could use some background on what is meant by the term "God-Man" as commonly used in theological discussions. However if there's general interest in revisiting the topic, we can certainly do so. --clh]
paulj@b8.ingr.com (Joey Paul x4129 ) (08/08/90)
In Article <Jul.29.14.06.28.1990.12921@athos.rutgers.edu>, ckp@grebyn.com (Checkpoint Technologies @ Grebyn Timesharing, Vienna, VA, USA) writes: >Furthermore, Jesus' physical body and blood are present on earth right >now as we speak -- in the Tabernacle of every Catholic Church of the >world. So Jesus even now, has a bodily existence, albeit in a >sacramental form. This is certainly an interesting statement. Being the ever-cautious soul that I am (Jn 5:39; Acts 17:11), on what *biblical* authority do you make this claim? I'm really curious because I can't find it. -- Joey Paul ...uunet!ingr!dj4104!paulj (UUCP) ( 205 ) 730-4129 dj4104!paulj@ingr.com (INTERNET)