st0o+@andrew.cmu.edu (Steven Timm) (07/05/90)
In Benjamin Britten's "A Ceremony of Carols," he sets to 20th century music ten or so carols which I understand to date from English antiquity. One of them is the carol "Deo Gracias" which despite its Latin title is in English. In referring to the fall of Adam, (I don't remember the words exactly, this is a paraphrase) .... if the appil had not taken been then would not Our Lady 'a been hevene Queen Blessed be the day the appil taken was.... Do Catholics really believe this? Or does anyone else? I know the idea that the fall was a good idea appears in Mormon literature, but this is the only reference to the benefits of the fall I've seen elsewhere. [I suppose if you believe that the Virgin is heaven's Queen, then it's true enough. But do you really praise God for sin?] Steve [There was a debate in later Calvinism over the question of whether God willed the fall. The two views are called infralapsarianism and supralapsarianism. I find that in the whole area of God's "eternal decree" there are no easy answers, and I can only advance tentative conclusions. But my own view is that we have to imagine that God intended what actually happened. The infralapsarian view is that while this may be true, we don't want to say that he positively wanted people to sin. However God did at least wanted something that implied that in fact they would sin. E.g. he wanted children who had chosen him responsibly, and there was no way to get this without eventually having them sin. The best support of the supralapsarian view is in Romans. We can read Paul as taking the more radical position that God intended to save people through sin. Much of Romans is dealing with the problem of how the Jews could have rejected Christ. First Paul suggests that it was to provide an opportunity for the message to spread to the Gentiles. Then in Rom 11 he says that their rejection is only temporary: eventually all of Israel will be saved. Finally, he explains that this is only a special example of God's general way of proceeding: "The Jews now disobey God, in order that they also may now receive God's mercy. For God has made all people prisoners of disobedience, so that he might show mercy to them all." (Rom 11:31-32) This suggests that rather than making people who are intrisically perfect, he chooses to start with people who are intrinsically not capable of righteousness on their own, so that all of their righteousness can come from his grace. This seems very close to what Deo Gratias is saying. However it is a very controversial vision of God's will. From what I know of the Catholic approach to these issues, this view is far more Protestant than Catholic. --clh]
billmc@microsoft.UUCP (Bill MCJOHN) (07/08/90)
In article <Jul.5.04.15.29.1990.1187@athos.rutgers.edu>, st0o+@andrew.cmu.edu (Steven Timm) writes: > > ".... if the appil had not taken been > then would not Our Lady 'a been hevene Queen > Blessed be the day the appil taken was...." > > Do Catholics really believe this? Yes. 'O happy fault of Adam, that gained for the world so great a Redeemer!' Although the disobedience of Adam and Eve brought sin and death into the world, it also led to the Incarnation of Christ. And therefore, we sing 'Deo gratias!'
ckp@grebyn.com (Checkpoint Technologies) (07/10/90)
In article <Jul.8.00.27.23.1990.6053@athos.rutgers.edu> billmc@microsoft.UUCP (Bill MCJOHN) writes: > >Yes. 'O happy fault of Adam, that gained for the world so great >a Redeemer!' Although the disobedience of Adam and Eve brought >sin and death into the world, it also led to the Incarnation of >Christ. And therefore, we sing 'Deo gratias!' It is not an article of the Catholic Faith that Adam's sin was a prerequisite to Jesus' Incarnation. However, it may be piously believed. Chris -- First comes the logo: C H E C K P O I N T T E C H N O L O G I E S / / \\ / / Then, the disclaimer: All expressed opinions are, indeed, opinions. \ / o Now for the witty part: I'm pink, therefore, I'm spam! \/
jhpb@granjon.garage.att.com (07/13/90)
It is not an article of the Catholic Faith that Adam's sin was a
prerequisite to Jesus' Incarnation. However, it may be piously
believed.
Chris
Indeed. There is a school of Catholic theology that believes that the
Incarnation would have happened whether Adam fell or not. They do not
see the main purpose of the Incarnation in the Redemption, but in the
reign of Christ over all creation, if I recall correctly.
Joe Buehlercms@dragon.uucp (07/16/90)
In article <Jul.13.05.02.45.1990.12014@athos.rutgers.edu>, jhpb@granjon.garage.att.com writes: > It is not an article of the Catholic Faith that Adam's sin was a > prerequisite to Jesus' Incarnation. However, it may be piously > believed. > > Chris > > Indeed. There is a school of Catholic theology that believes that the > Incarnation would have happened whether Adam fell or not. They do not > see the main purpose of the Incarnation in the Redemption, but in the > reign of Christ over all creation, if I recall correctly. > > Joe Buehler Does this mean that Christ would have become Incarnate but need not have died on the Cross to redeem mankind for their sins? that he would have ruled without the Cross? I suppose this begs the question: Is sin an inevitable aspect of intelligence? Was it within Adam's nature to sin before the Fall? Did God know this? Ah, Thomas Aquinas is smarter than me, Summa Contra Gentiles (Volume I: God): "....an effect can be preknown in its cause even before it exists. Thus, an astronomer preknows a future eclispe from a consideration of the order of the heavenly motions. But God knows all things through a cause; for, by knowing Himself, Who is the cause of other things, He knows other things as His effects, as was shown above. Nothing, therefore, prevents God from knowing even the things that are not." -- Sincerely, Cindy Smith _///_ // SPAWN OF A JEWISH _///_ // _///_ // <`)= _<< CARPENTER _///_ //<`)= _<< <`)= _<< _///_ // \\\ \\ \\ _\\\_ <`)= _<< \\\ \\ \\\ \\ <`)= _<< >IXOYE=('> \\\ \\ \\\ \\_///_ // // /// _///_ // _///_ // emory!dragon!cms <`)= _<< _///_ // <`)= _<< <`)= _<< \\\ \\<`)= _<< \\\ \\ \\\ \\ GO AGAINST THE FLOW! \\\ \\ A Real Live Catholic in Georgia Don't bother me now! I'm looking up a Scripture passage to support one of my preconceived notions. -- Charles Schulz
st0o+@andrew.cmu.edu (Steven Timm) (07/24/90)
I made the original post relating a few lines from Benjamin Britten's carol "Deo Gratias" from "The Ceremony of Carols" I understand the carols here for the most part are taken from ancient English and Latin texts. Part of the carol celebrates the fall of Adam. Some people have said that some Catholics do believe that we should praise God for the fall because it lead to the glorification and incarnation of Christ. (This seems to parallel Mormon thinking that the fall was a good thing, but I digress.) But this was not the original point of my question. The carol says that if Adam had not taken the apple "Then had not Our Lady a been Hevene queen." It's not celebrating Jesus--it's celebrating the exaltation of Mary. Do Catholics really believe this was the reason the fall happened? Do *you* sing "Deo Gratias" because sin came to exalt Mary? Are there similar sources in Catholic thought which echo this sentiment. Steve
mls@sfsup.att.com (Mike Siemon) (07/26/90)
In article <Jul.24.04.06.18.1990.17083@athos.rutgers.edu>, st0o+@andrew.cmu.edu (Steven Timm) writes: > The carol says that if Adam had not taken the apple "Then had not > Our Lady a been Hevene queen." It's not celebrating Jesus--it's > celebrating the exaltation of Mary. That seems a bit simple minded for a conclusion. Catholics, like good computer scientists, are comfortable with the notion of indirection. Consider the concluding petition of the Ave Maria. Holy Mary, Mother of God, pray for us sinners now and in the hour of our death. Who do you think Mary is praying too? Who else but the one in her most beautiful prayer: Magnificat anima mea... Some soi-disant Protestant objections to Catholic ideas and practices seem more in the nature of a broken '*' key on the protestors' keyboards. (Pascal users, substitute '^' for '*') (I hope it is needless to toss in some friendly smileys here?) -- Michael L. Siemon We must know the truth, and we must m.siemon@ATT.COM love the truth we know, and we must ...!att!sfsup!mls act according to the measure of our love. standard disclaimer -- Thomas Merton
leesa@frith.egr.msu.edu (Anita Lees) (07/26/90)
I can only speak for myself as far as "what Catholics believe" about the Fall from Grace in Eden, since many of us (not just Catholics!) believe a lot of garbage that isn't sanctioned by church or Bible. I believe, as the church teaches, that the Fall was the consequence of the exercise of free will on the part of Adam and Eve. God the Father, in His mysterious wisdom, knew that humanity would fall from grace, and that He would have to send His Son; but (at least so we believe) He did not arrange for it to happen. There is certainly an element of Catholics who emphasize Mary to the point of idolatry, just as there people of other denominations who elevate the Bible too high. "Mariolatry" was very common during the Middle Ages, when people felt unworthy of the mediation of Jesus. The catholic Church teaches that it is right to love and respect the woman who nurtured and sustained Jesus' human life, and that along with the saints, Mary can pray to God (Father, Son, and Spirit) for, and along with, us. The doctrines of immaculate conception and perpetual virginity arose during the middle ages, although they were not formalized until much later. I don't want to take up any more resources on this topic (which may have been dealt with in depth before -- if so, please excuse me), but I wanted to correct the misimpression that all, or even most, Catholics are Mary fanatics. Please email me if you would like to discuss theology in more depth (in a rational manner). + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + Anita F. Lees leesa@frith.egr.msu.edu + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + +
jhpb@granjon.garage.att.com (07/26/90)
The carol says that if Adam had not taken the apple "Then had not
Our Lady a been Hevene queen." It's not celebrating Jesus--it's
celebrating the exaltation of Mary.
Do Catholics really believe this was the reason the fall happened?
Do *you* sing "Deo Gratias" because sin came to exalt Mary?
Are there similar sources in Catholic thought which echo this sentiment.
"The" reason that God permitted the Fall was His own glory. That's the
primary motivation for everything He does. Within the works that He did
to repair the Fall, there are many things to give thanks for. The
Mother of God is one of them.
As I believe someone else quoted, the Catholic liturgy says:
O happy fault! That has merited so great a Redeemer!
God turns evil into good. Viewing the Fall as an essentially negative
thing would seem to overlook this.
Joe Buehlerdo515127@longs.lance.colostate.edu (07/26/90)
In article <Jul.24.04.06.18.1990.17083@athos.rutgers.edu> st0o+@andrew.cmu.edu (Steven Timm) writes: >I made the original post relating a few lines from Benjamin Britten's >carol "Deo Gratias" from "The Ceremony of Carols" I understand the >carols here for the most part are taken from ancient English and Latin >The carol says that if Adam had not taken the apple "Then had not >Our Lady a been Hevene queen." It's not celebrating Jesus--it's >celebrating the exaltation of Mary. > >Do *you* sing "Deo Gratias" because sin came to exalt Mary? >Are there similar sources in Catholic thought which echo this sentiment. > Cardinal St. Alphonse di Liguori, in his book "The Glories of Mary", which as the editor says, "Everything that our saint has written is, as it were a Summary of a Catholic tradition on the subject that it treats: it is not an individual author; it is, so to speak, the church herself that speaks to us by the voice of her prophets, her apostles, her pontiffs, her saints, her fathers, her doctors of all nations and all ages." And he writes, "And she is truly made a mediatress of peace between sinners and God" "Sinners receive pardon by . . . Mary alone" (pg 82,83) and "He falls is lost who has not recourse to Mary" (pg 94) Versus, "I [Jesus] am the way the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by Me." (John 14:6) As for the Queen of Heaven, "Many things . . . are asked from God, and are not granted; they are asked from Mary, and are obtained" for "She . . . is even Queen of Hell, and Sovereign Mistress of the Devils." (pgs 137, 141, 143) Versus, "Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need" (Hebrews 4:16) "All power is given to Thee in Heaven and on earth" so that "at the command of Mary all obey, even God . . . and thus . . . God has placed the whole Church . . .under the dominion of Mary" (pgs 180, 181) Whereas, "And Jesus came and spake unto them saying, all power is given unto me in heaven and in earth" (Matt 28:18) "That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in Heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth" (Phil 2:10) The contrast is frightening. -- DAvid Olson | "I have come that they might have life, and have it to INET: do515127@longs.LANCE.ColoState.Edu | the full." -- Jesus, John 10:10b UUCP: boulder!ccncsu!longs.LANCE.ColoState.Edu!do515127 [I'd like to make a request of Catholic respondents. There is a question that has come up in the past, and I already know pretty much what the response is going to be. However I'd like to add another request. The charge that is implicit in this posting is that Liguori is replacing Christ as our sole redeemer with Mary. The usual response is to explain that Mary is not really replacing Christ: Christ simply acts through her. In addition to this explanation (which should certainly be made in more detail by a Catholic -- I don't claim to be able to do justice to the position), I'd like to know whether our Catholic readers believe that this approach is representative of the mainstream of Catholic views today. It's one thing to show that it can be interpreted so that it does not technically violate the bounds of Christian doctrine, but that does not necessarily mean it's a wise way to go. --clh]
ckp@grebyn.com (Checkpoint Technologies) (07/30/90)
In article <Jul.24.04.06.18.1990.17083@athos.rutgers.edu> st0o+@andrew.cmu.edu (Steven Timm) writes: >Some people >have said that some Catholics do believe that we should praise God >for the fall because it lead to the glorification and incarnation of >Christ. >[...] >The carol says that if Adam had not taken the apple "Then had not >Our Lady a been Hevene queen." It's not celebrating Jesus--it's >celebrating the exaltation of Mary. > The notion that the Fall was *necessary* in order for Jesus to become man is *not* part of the Deposit of the Catholic Faith. The Catholic Church has not made a conclusive statement as to whether the Fall was a prerequisite to Christ's Incarnation. However, the Fall, once having occurred, certainly caused Christ's Incarnation to be necessary in order for mankind to be saved. Mary, of course, played an extraordinary role in the Incarnation. She, of all created beings, was given the grace to be Mother of the Redeemer. Because of this special grace, resulting from the anticipated merits of Christ's salvific work, she herself was concieved without the slightest stain of sin, and was further given the grace to be the vehicle through which God became man -- His flesh being generated from her flesh. She is truely "full of grace." It has been often observed that man fell through the "yes" of a woman -- Eve -- to Satan. And likewise, man was saved through the "yes" of a woman -- Mary -- to God. Mary had free will just like the rest of us. And in no conceivable way could it have been considered a *sin* for Mary to have chosen not to take on the obligation (a fairly heafty one at that) that the Archangle Michael was extending to her. She could have quite easily chosen a different way of serving God. But she said "yes" to God's offer: "be it done unto me according to Thy word." And because of her free-will choice, Salvation came to man. So we have much -- everything! -- for which to be thankful to Mary: even the fact of our very salvation. >Do Catholics really believe this was the reason the fall happened? >Do *you* sing "Deo Gratias" because sin came to exalt Mary? Now, if you are wondering if the Fall happened in order to glorify Mary??? Catholics believe no such thing. What an inconceivable idea. No, by no stretch of the imagination could one say that Catholics believe that the Fall happened in order to glorify Mary. Such an idea is the furthest thing from the Catholic faith. Even though we have much to Mary to be greatful for, under no circumstances would Catholics say that the Fall occurred in order to glorify a created being -- Mary. If through Mary God is glorified, then praise God!! But Mary's glorification as an end in itself is a most revolting idea. > >Steve chris -- First comes the logo: C H E C K P O I N T T E C H N O L O G I E S / / \\ / / Then, the disclaimer: All expressed opinions are, indeed, opinions. \ / o Now for the witty part: I'm pink, therefore, I'm spam! \/
ckp@grebyn.com (Checkpoint Technologies) (07/30/90)
>[I'd like to make a request of Catholic respondents. There is a >question that has come up in the past, and I already know pretty much >what the response is going to be. However I'd like to add another >request. The charge that is implicit in this posting is that Liguori >is replacing Christ as our sole redeemer with Mary. The usual >response is to explain that Mary is not really replacing Christ: >Christ simply acts through her. In addition to this explanation >(which should certainly be made in more detail by a Catholic -- I >don't claim to be able to do justice to the position), I'd like to >know whether our Catholic readers believe that this approach is >representative of the mainstream of Catholic views today. It's one >thing to show that it can be interpreted so that it does not >technically violate the bounds of Christian doctrine, but that does >not necessarily mean it's a wise way to go. --clh] Mary is a *creature*. A creature, a creature, a CREATURE!!! OK???? (This is not directed at you, clh, but everyone in netland.) She is *not* God, nor is she in the least bit comparible with God. She is a creature and servant of God, a humble handmaid, to use her words. However, as a * C R E A T U R E *, she is above all other * C R E A T U R E S *. She is "full of grace." This means that she is really F-U-L-L--O-F--G-R-A-C-E!! Full of grace means free of sin...she is so full of grace to the brim that there is no room even for the slightest sinful tendency. But she is a creature, and she has her own free will. It would be correct to say that "Christ acts through Mary" to the extent that Christ acts through any of his creatures. But she has her own sinless free will, which is not *identicle* with Gods will. Now, I would like everyone to try a little experiment. Please ask God for a cup of sugar, right now as you are reading this. All of you who now have a cup of sugar in your hands, please e-mail me immediately!! Now, go to your next-door-neighbor and ask them for a cup of sugar. I bet that a lot more of you have a cup of sugar now. Does this mean that your next-door-neighbor is somehow more powerful that God Himself? If you would like to conclude that, go right ahead. But the Catholic Church dies not teach that -- about your next-door-neighbor, or about Mary. Mary is a creature. As a creature, she is the most perfect creature created by God. She had the singluar vocation of all time and in all the universe of being the vehicle through which God Himself chose to Incarnate Himself for the redemtion of the world. She is specially favored of God. She is the Mother of our Redeemer. No other creature deserves more "creaturely" reverence than she does. As a creature she is full of wisdom and power -- moreso thatn any other * C R E A T U R E *. If we can ask our next-door-neighbor for a favor and get it, don't you think we can ask Mary for a favor -- and get it? Does this mean that she is somehow more powerful than God? Of course not. It simply means that God sometimes choses to bestow His grace upon us through our fellow creatures! And Mary is the friend of all creatures. chris -- First comes the logo: C H E C K P O I N T T E C H N O L O G I E S / / \\ / / Then, the disclaimer: All expressed opinions are, indeed, opinions. \ / o Now for the witty part: I'm pink, therefore, I'm spam! \/
cms@dragon.uucp (07/30/90)
In article <Jul.24.04.06.18.1990.17083@athos.rutgers.edu>, st0o+@andrew.cmu.edu (Steven Timm) writes: > I made the original post relating a few lines from Benjamin Britten's > carol "Deo Gratias" from "The Ceremony of Carols" I understand the > carols here for the most part are taken from ancient English and Latin > texts. Part of the carol celebrates the fall of Adam. Some people > have said that some Catholics do believe that we should praise God > for the fall because it lead to the glorification and incarnation of > Christ. (This seems to parallel Mormon thinking that the fall was > a good thing, but I digress.) But this was not the original point > of my question. "Moreover, in Genesis 22 [:18], His promise to Abraham was, In thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed. Christ is the seed of Abraham according to St. Paul in Galatians 3 [:16], and has given a blessing to all the world through the gospel; for where Christ is not found, there remains the curse which was pronounced on Adam and his descendants, after his sin. The effect of this curse was that they too were guilty of sin, and that death and hell would be their lot. But, contrary to the curse, the gospel brought a blessing to all the world when it proclaimed, for all to hear, that whoever believed on the seed of Abraham should be blessed, i.e., delivered from sin, death, and hell. Thus made righteous, he would live in eternal bliss. This is what Christ Himself said in John 11 [:26], He who believes on me shall never die." Martin Luther Preface to the New Testament The first step in becoming Christian is to admit, "I am a sinner." For all its theological underpinnings, original sin means no more than this. C. S. Lewis (an Anglican), in Perelandra, had this to say after it had been determined that Original Sin did *not* occur on Perelandra (Venus, for what it's worth): "Today for the first time two creatures of the low worlds, two images of Maleldil [Jesus] that breathe and breed like the beasts, step up that step at which your parents fell, and sit in the throne of what they were meant to be. It was never seen before. Because it did not happen in your world [Earth] a greater thing happened, but not this. Because the greater thing happened in Thulcandra, this and not the greater thing happens here." Later in the same work: The King, the Man of this world who did not commit Original Sin, says: "All this, all that happened in your world, Maleldil [Jesus] has put into our mind. We have learned of evil, though not as the Evil One wished us to learn. We have learned better than that, and know it more, for it is waking that understands sleep and not sleep that understand waking. There is an ignorance of evil that comes from being young; there is a darker ignorance that comes from doing it, as men by sleeping lose the knowledge of sleep. You are more ignorant of evil in Thulcandra [EArth] now than in the days before your Lord and Lady [Adam and Eve] began to do it. But Maleldil [Jesus] has brought us out of the one ignorance, and we have not entered the other. It was by the Evil One himself that he brought us out of the first. Little did that dark mind know the errand on which he really came to Perelandra!" It's interesting that in this novel the Forbidden Thing, once rejected by the Adam and Eve of this world, subsequently becomes no longer forbidden. Last quotation, from the Song of the Great Dance: "All of which is not itself the Great Dance was made in order that He [Maleldil/Jesus] might come down into it. In the Fallen World [Earth] He prepared for Himself a body and was united with the Dust and made it glorious for ever. This is the end and final cause of all creating, and the sin whereby it came is called Fortunate and the world where this was enacted is the centre of worlds. Blessed be He!" The idea of Original Sin being fortunate since it caused the Incarnation to have to occur is certainly not an exclusively Roman Catholic notion. It is rather like calling the wounds or training scars one receives from a teacher fortunate since they taught you to be a better fighter. Perhaps not an exact match. Try this: The sin I committed when I cheated at cards is fortunate since it caused me to realize how wrong it is to cheat. Not an exact match either since Adam and Eve's sin isn't called fortunate simply because it caused them to realize what a dreadful thing sin was. Or am I getting warmer? God knew it was within human being's nature to sin yet could not prevent their sin by force but only by persuasion (not so modern a concept, eh?); such is the nature of free will. God could tell us the right (obedience) but only we could choose; God could not choose for us. Thus, Original Sin is fortunate in that it was the first step in showing us how wrong it is to sin. Original Sin is especially fortunate since it was the root of sin that was lifted up by our Redemption. In this respect we are affected by Original Sin in the same way that "no man is an island" and "I am a member of the human race, no person or place is foreign to me" and "therefore, do not ask for whom the bell tolls, it tolls for thee." > The carol says that if Adam had not taken the apple "Then had not > Our Lady a been Hevene queen." It's not celebrating Jesus--it's > celebrating the exaltation of Mary. > > Do Catholics really believe this was the reason the fall happened? > Do *you* sing "Deo Gratias" because sin came to exalt Mary? > Are there similar sources in Catholic thought which echo this sentiment. Mary is exalted because of her acceptance of the word of God resulting in the birth of the Messiah. If Adam had not taken the apple then Mary would not have been exalted as Queen of Heaven since Jesus wouldn't have been there to crown her since He wouldn't have risen from the dead and ascended into heaven. Mary's position as Queen of Heaven (as I've often pointed out) is a reference to her subordinate position as first of all the saints; now *that's* a quote from the Catholic Catechism. Try reading it this way: If Adam had not taken the apple then none of the saints of God would have received the crown of life (Letter of James). The Fifth Glorious Mystery is often cited: "The Coronation of Mary as Queen of Heaven and the Coronation of All the Saints." Since the Rosary honors Mary, we tend to focus on her Coronation. I gather this reflects the belief that death would not have entered into the world were it not for Original Sin therefore we would have lived forever perhaps never seeing the "beautific vision" of heaven including oneness with God. Based on Lewis, we would have learned of evil eventually, but the oneness would not have occurred until the Great Dance (the end of time). > Steve -- Sincerely, Cindy Smith emory!dragon!cms
norcio@afn.ifsm.umbc.edu (A. F. Norcio) (08/06/90)
In her recent response to this topic, Cindy Smith refers to the "Catholic Catechism". It is necessary to point out that there is no such document as the "Catholic Catechism". There are a number of catechisms that are used by various Catholic schools and parishes. One of the more famous ones, which is now dated and almost never used, is the Baltimore Catechism. But there is no such thing as the "Catholic Catechism" authorized, promulgated, or sanctioned by the Catholic Church. An official Catholic Church catechism is now being developed by a Papal Commission with the assistance of bishops and theologians from around the world. This catechism now exists only in draft form and by no means is complete. It is the intention of Rome that this document will be the official catechism of the Catholic Church if and when it is completed and is accpted by the bishops. It may be useful to point put that when any document such as the many catechisms that are used, has an Imprimatur seal signed by a bishop it does not mean that the document presents the official position of the Catholic Church. And it does not mean or imply that the bishop agrees with, supports, or endorses the positions in the document. The imprimatur means only that the document is free of doctrinal or moral error.
cms@dragon.uucp (08/08/90)
In article <Aug.5.22.01.44.1990.18694@athos.rutgers.edu>, norcio@afn.ifsm.umbc.edu (A. F. Norcio) writes: > In her recent response to this topic, Cindy Smith > refers to the "Catholic Catechism". It is necessary > to point out that there is no such document as the > "Catholic Catechism". There are a number of catechisms > that are used by various Catholic schools and parishes. > One of the more famous ones, which is now dated and > almost never used, is the Baltimore Catechism. > But there is no such thing as the "Catholic Catechism" > authorized, promulgated, or sanctioned by the Catholic Church. Absolutely correct! I should have been more specific. I have a dozen or more Catholic Cathecisms, some booklets, some whole books; I collect them for sport :-). Everyone should have a hobby. I also collect Rosaries; although there is no official Rosary of the Catholic Church, and the Dominican is considered standard, I've collected over 45 different versions, and I have about 20 different actual Rosary beads. The Rosary of Saint Jude is one of my favorites. > An official Catholic Church catechism is now being > developed by a Papal Commission with the assistance of > bishops and theologians from around the world. This > catechism now exists only in draft form and by no means > is complete. It is the intention of Rome that this document > will be the official catechism of the Catholic Church > if and when it is completed and is accpted by the bishops. I've heard hell's own noise about the contents, too. Has anyone else heard more about the controversy surrounding the official position of the Church on various controversial issues? -- Sincerely, Cindy Smith _///_ // SPAWN OF A JEWISH _///_ // _///_ // <`)= _<< CARPENTER _///_ //<`)= _<< <`)= _<< _///_ // \\\ \\ \\ _\\\_ <`)= _<< \\\ \\ \\\ \\ <`)= _<< >IXOYE=('> \\\ \\ \\\ \\_///_ // // /// _///_ // _///_ // emory!dragon!cms <`)= _<< _///_ // <`)= _<< <`)= _<< \\\ \\<`)= _<< \\\ \\ \\\ \\ GO AGAINST THE FLOW! \\\ \\ A Real Live Catholic in Georgia