hwt@.bnr.ca (Henry Troup) (07/24/90)
In article <Jul.18.05.02.57.1990.16155@athos.rutgers.edu> cms@dragon.uucp writes: >the late middle ages, the priest is to continue to place the bread in people's >mouths rather than following the ancient practice of placing it in their >hands." So that's why! I find it interesting that here the Church is a force I'm slightly confused - are you saying that American Episcopal practice is to place the bread in people's mouths? This is rather unlike the Episcopal Church in Scotland, and the Anglican Church of Canada. Do you also receive in both kinds? BTW, the host is supposed to be a wonderful remedy for caterpillars on cabbage! :^) -- Henry Troup - BNR owns but does not share my opinions | Not one of 100% of ..uunet!bnrgate!hwt%bwdlh490 HWT@BNR.CA 613-765-2337 | Americans
mls@sfsup.att.com (Mike Siemon) (07/26/90)
In article <Jul.24.04.14.04.1990.17200@athos.rutgers.edu>, hwt@.bnr.ca (Henry Troup) writes: > I'm slightly confused - are you saying that American Episcopal practice is > to place the bread in people's mouths? This is rather unlike the Episcopal > Church in Scotland, and the Anglican Church of Canada. Do you also receive > in both kinds? I would guess that majority practice is to receive the host or bread in one's hands (and fairly common practice to help the chalice bearer guide the cup :-)) But there are certainly high AngloCatholic types who *will* take host and wine only "without help of human hands." Certainly, if one is ill and wishes to take the wine by "intinction" (i.e., dipping the host into the wine, fairly common), one had better be prepared to grip the host firmly! Priests here have to be fairly alert, because they tend to be faced by quite determined practitioners of various forms. It can be, I am told, quite nervous-making, especially for the newly ordained. General Seminary runs a "Mass Class" taught by Father J. Robert Wright. Much of this is simple and direct instruction in the rite. but there is one wonderful segment of the class in which the students have to run a "practice mass" in which members of the community have been planted as ringers -- with secret instructions by J.Bob to do things like: - grab the chalice and (try to) drain it - go into fits at (?)appropriate places in the service - clutch at the priests robes and cry out "Help me, I have sinned!" at the aesthetically least opportune moment ... You get the idea. These things merely exaggerate on actual things that have happened to all too many priests in "normal" circumstances. One complicating factor is that "generic" policy is to admit any baptized Christian to communion who desires to take it. This can very often lead to novice communicants who simply have *no* idea what to do. They will usually be able to imitate those around them, and the priest can give a few good "cues" -- but chances for remarkable comedies always abound. Unless you have lived around a community of priests, you have *no idea* how many mind-boggling things can go wrong in a service! But openness to this is part, I think, of a proper humility and vulnerability before God. -- Michael L. Siemon We must know the truth, and we must m.siemon@ATT.COM love the truth we know, and we must ...!att!sfsup!mls act according to the measure of our love. standard disclaimer -- Thomas Merton [Have I told you about the incident in which an Episcopal priest managed to consecrate and serve shampoo? --clh]
carroll@beaver.cs.washington.edu (Jeff Carroll) (07/26/90)
In article <Jul.24.04.14.04.1990.17200@athos.rutgers.edu> hwt@.bnr.ca (Henry Troup) writes: >I'm slightly confused - are you saying that American Episcopal practice is >to place the bread in people's mouths? This is rather unlike the Episcopal >Church in Scotland, and the Anglican Church of Canada. Do you also receive >in both kinds? In my diocese (one characteristic of American Anglicanism is liturgical variation from one locality to another), there are two common ways of receiving the Sacrament. The more common is the practice with which all Anglicans are familiar - receipt of the Host in the hand, followed by drinking from the chalice. The second method is for the communicant to receive the host and wait for the chalice bearer, who intincts the Host in the chalice and places it in the communicant's mouth, with the words used for the administration of the chalice. This method is often preferred by recovering alcoholics and converts from Roman Catholicism. Of course, the communicant always has the option of receiving the Host only, should he/she be alcoholic, ill, or pregnant. Jeff Carroll carroll@atc.boeing.com
cms@dragon.uucp (07/30/90)
In article <Jul.24.04.14.04.1990.17200@athos.rutgers.edu>, hwt@.bnr.ca (Henry Troup) writes: > In article <Jul.18.05.02.57.1990.16155@athos.rutgers.edu> cms@dragon.uucp writes: >>the late middle ages, the priest is to continue to place the bread in people's >>mouths rather than following the ancient practice of placing it in their >>hands." So that's why! I find it interesting that here the Church is a force > > I'm slightly confused - are you saying that American Episcopal practice is > to place the bread in people's mouths? This is rather unlike the Episcopal > Church in Scotland, and the Anglican Church of Canada. Do you also receive > in both kinds? I believe the above quotation is from the 1549 Prayer Book (Church of England). In the Episcopal Church, the Body of Christ is placed in the hand, generally. In some Churches, placing the Body of Christ on the tongue is the rule, but such churches are the exception in the Anglican Communion. In actual practice, Episcopal Church priests will place the Eucharist on the tongue's of those who open their mouths; this is simply because of the large numbers of Roman Catholics who come to our church for the first time (myself included) and aren't familiar with prevailing practice. After receiving Communion on the tongue in the Episcopal Church, the priest once said to me, "Hold out your hand." I said, "Sir?" and he repeated, "Hold out your hand." Confused, I did so, and he placed the Eucharist in my hand. I have to confess I was utterly, utterly *shocked* when I held the Eucharist in my hand and wasn't sure what to do with it. I felt like Peter at the Transfiguration who didn't know what he was saying either when I asked, "What do I do with it?" I felt like an idiot later. I remember the priest saying under his breath, "Oh, boy," then he said, "You eat it." I did. Heh heh. I've grown in the Church since then. This has nothing whatsoever to do with theology; it's just something that had never happened to me before. I had no problem then, and have no problem now, with touching the Eucharist, I'd just never done it before. I also used to immediately get up and leave after receiving the Body; it was only later than I realized that, yes, we also receive the Blood of Christ in the Episcopal Church. > BTW, the host is supposed to be a wonderful remedy for caterpillars on > cabbage! > :^) ????? Huh ??? > Henry Troup - BNR owns but does not share my opinions | Not one of 100% of -- Sincerely, Cindy Smith _///_ // SPAWN OF A JEWISH _///_ // _///_ // <`)= _<< CARPENTER _///_ //<`)= _<< <`)= _<< _///_ // \\\ \\ \\ _\\\_ <`)= _<< \\\ \\ \\\ \\ <`)= _<< >IXOYE=('> \\\ \\ \\\ \\_///_ // // /// _///_ // _///_ // emory!dragon!cms <`)= _<< _///_ // <`)= _<< <`)= _<< \\\ \\<`)= _<< \\\ \\ \\\ \\ GO AGAINST THE FLOW! \\\ \\ A Real Live Catholic in Georgia
kilroy@mimsy.umd.edu (Dr. Nancy's Sweetie) (07/30/90)
Michael Siemon, writing about Communion practice in Anglican churches, made the following comment: >Certainly, if one is ill and wishes to take the wine by "intinction" (i.e., >dipping the host into the wine, fairly common), one had better be prepared >to grip the host firmly! Which reminds me of something I read that people here might find amusing: During the 1984 presidential campaign, Ronald & Nancy Reagan went to church one Sunday with Mr. Reagan's press secretary (whose name escapes me at the moment). The Reagans (who are Presbyterian) were unfamiliar with the way in which Episcopelians observe Communion, and were uncomfortable drinking from a common cup. As they approached the rail, the press secretary (Deaver? Speakes? I still don't remember) told them that they could dip the wafer into the wine, if they preferred, but Ron (who is hard of hearing, you will recall) did not hear him; Nancy said "just do what I do". Well, around comes the priest with the cup, and Nancy goes to intinct and accidentally drops her wafer in. So, the priest gets to Ronnie, who leans forward slightly and drops his in too. The press secretary said "the priest went on, shaking his head." (This is recounted in the press secretary's book, which I want to call _Michael Speaks_, so his name may be Speakes. Then again, maybe it isn't...) kilroy@cs.umd.edu Darren F. Provine ...uunet!mimsy!kilroy "I don't remember, I don't recall; I got no memory of anything at all." -- Peter Gabriel
jao@tekcrl.labs.tek.com (John Ockerbloom) (07/30/90)
In article <Jul.26.01.49.36.1990.26530@athos.rutgers.edu> you write: >[Have I told you about the incident in which an Episcopal priest >managed to consecrate and serve shampoo? --clh] No, I don't remember you mentioning it here before, but there's got to be a good story behind that one. I'd be interested in hearing more. John Ockerbloom ============================================================================== jao@tekcrl.labs.tek.com ockerbloom@cs.cmu.edu (forwarded) ocker@yalecs.bitnet (fwded) 14245 SW Walker Rd. (#15), Beaverton, OR 97006 [I'm not much of a story-teller, so this is going to be sort of abbreviated. This was told to me in college by a fellow who was the son of an Episcopal pastor. His church served a white wine that came in particularly handsome containers. The pastor's wife decided that one of the containers would look nice in her boudoir, so she appropriated an empty one. She ended up putting shampoo in it. The pastor noticed the container at home, full of a liquid that look roughly the same as the white wine, and concluded that somehow he had mistakenly left one at home. He took it back to the church. You can imagine the rest. He used it on a Sunday when he had a bad cold, so he was unable to smell the fact that the liquid was not what he expected. However he began to realize that something was odd when people started running out of the sanctuary after communing. Once he realized his mistake, of course he stopped the service, poured some real wine and consecrated it. But the question that interested my friend was: what do you do with consecrated shampoo? He says that nobody would tell him what was finally done. --clh]
cms@dragon.uucp (07/30/90)
In article <Jul.26.01.49.36.1990.26530@athos.rutgers.edu>, mls@sfsup.att.com (Mike Siemon) writes: > - grab the chalice and (try to) drain it > - go into fits at (?)appropriate places in the service > - clutch at the priests robes and cry out "Help me, I have sinned!" > at the aesthetically least opportune moment ... Once, when I was a child, I was absolutely *parched*, and I drained the chalice. The priest tried to take it away from me, but I was insistent, saying, "I'm thirsty!" I walked back to my seat feeling a bit tipsy; it was full. > Michael L. Siemon We must know the truth, and we must > [Have I told you about the incident in which an Episcopal priest > managed to consecrate and serve shampoo? --clh] I'm dying to hear! How on earth did it happen? Did they actually consume the shampoo (er, blood of Christ)? What happened at the end of the mass when the chalicist is required to consume all the remainder? Hee hee. -- Sincerely, Cindy Smith emory!dragon!cms [Answered in a previous posting. --clh]
carroll@beaver.cs.washington.edu (Jeff Carroll) (08/06/90)
>[I'm not much of a story-teller, so this is going to be sort of >abbreviated. This was told to me in college by a fellow who was the >son of an Episcopal pastor. His church served a white wine that came >in particularly handsome containers. The pastor's wife decided that >one of the containers would look nice in her boudoir, so she ... As a conservative Episcopalian, I am dismayed but neither shocked nor surprised that a vino cruet would wind up in someone's bathroom, but that should serve as an indication to non-Episcopalians of the turmoil that currently exists in our church. >realized his mistake, of course he stopped the service, poured some >real wine and consecrated it. But the question that interested my >friend was: what do you do with consecrated shampoo? He says that >nobody would tell him what was finally done. --clh] In fact, most Episcopal parishes have a special basin in the sacristy which drains into the ground in a way which is ecclesiastically approved for the disposal of excess sacramental wine (I'd guess that RCs do as well). While excess wine is usually consumed by the ministers (including the lay chalice bearers), sometimes there is just so much (or it is just so early in the morning) that, at the discretion of the celebrant, it is poured into this basin. My guess is that that's what happened to the shampoo. (Or maybe the rector's wife just took it back home and used it.) Jeff Carroll carroll@atc.boeing.com
mmh@cs.qmw.ac.uk (Matthew Huntbach) (08/06/90)
In article <Jul.29.13.46.56.1990.12563@athos.rutgers.edu> cms@dragon.uucp writes: > I believe the above quotation is from the 1549 Prayer Book (Church of >England). In the Episcopal Church, the Body of Christ is placed in the hand, >generally. In some Churches, placing the Body of Christ on the tongue is the >rule, but such churches are the exception in the Anglican Communion. > In actual practice, Episcopal Church priests will place the Eucharist > on the tongue's of those who open their mouths; this is >simply because of the large numbers of Roman Catholics who come to our > church for the first time (myself included) and >aren't familiar with prevailing practice. In fact, communion by hand has been permissible in the RC Church in England for about twelve years. Maybe it hasn't reached the USA yet, whether it's permissible is up to the local bishops (I remember seeing it in France twenty years ago). Communion under both kinds is now becoming more general in the RC Church here as well, and has recently been made permissible in all circumstances. Matthew Huntbach
mmh@cs.qmw.ac.uk (Matthew Huntbach) (08/06/90)
>real wine and consecrated it. But the question that interested my >friend was: what do you do with consecrated shampoo? He says that >nobody would tell him what was finally done. --clh] In fact, there are fairly strict rules about what constitutes bread and wine. If it isn't bread or wine, it can't be consecrated. So it was simply shampoo, and could be tipped back into the shampoo bottle for hair-washing. Matthew Huntbach
cms@dragon.uucp (08/08/90)
In article <Aug.5.19.30.23.1990.17664@athos.rutgers.edu>, bcsaic!carroll@beaver.cs.washington.edu (Jeff Carroll) writes: > In fact, most Episcopal parishes have a special basin in the sacristy > which drains into the ground in a way which is ecclesiastically approved > for the disposal of excess sacramental wine (I'd guess that RCs do as > well). While excess wine is usually consumed by the ministers (including > the lay chalice bearers), sometimes there is just so much (or it is just > so early in the morning) that, at the discretion of the celebrant, it is > poured into this basin. I think Chuck's story was meant to be taken more humorously. At any rate, I have a friend in my parish who used to serve as an altar boy in his Episcopal church. The old priest there constantly poured way too much wine for the Mass and then insisted that it be consumed in toto by the altar boys, who were the only ones assisting him at this early morning Mass. My friend remembers going home from Mass tipsy, walking into his house, and his father saying, "Old Father Joe celebrated again, eh?" Also, I have a good one from the Father Koesler Mysteries (you may remember the movie, The Rosary Murders); this is from Marked For Murder. In you didn't quite understand what Jeff's talking about, a "sacrarium" is a special sink which has a pipe that leads directly into the ground and is used for the washing of sacred linens (priest-wear, robes and such). I've heard of some priests who use them to dispose of sacramental wine, but the RC Church at least forbids this now, as I understand it, and insists on consumption. For washing, holy water must be poured by a deacon or higher ordained, then ordinary water can be added to it; sub-deacons do most of the washing, as my priest told me (he was ordained in the Roman Church). That may be their primary function :-). Anyway, here's the joke: A seminarian was taking his final orals for ordination. The first examining priest finished, walked out, and in came a much older priest, who threw a hypothetical at him (this is supposedly a true story). "You're celebrating Mass," the old priest said. "You've finished the consecration. Your hands are raised in prayer. Suddenly! A little mouse scurries across the Altar, grabs the consecrated Host in its mouth, and scurries away. What do you do?" Well, the young seminarian thought about it for a while and then replied: "Well, I'd burn down the Church and throw the ashes in the sacrarium!" > Jeff Carroll -- Sincerely, Cindy Smith emory!dragon!cms [Indeed my story was intended to be taken humorously, but as far as I know it is true. It was told to me by the son of the priest involved. --clh]
cms@dragon.uucp (08/08/90)
In article <Aug.5.19.30.46.1990.17682@athos.rutgers.edu>, mmh@cs.qmw.ac.uk (Matthew Huntbach) writes: >>real wine and consecrated it. But the question that interested my >>friend was: what do you do with consecrated shampoo? He says that >>nobody would tell him what was finally done. --clh] > > In fact, there are fairly strict rules about what constitutes > bread and wine. If it isn't bread or wine, it can't be > consecrated. So it was simply shampoo, and could be tipped back > into the shampoo bottle for hair-washing. > > Matthew Huntbach I've heard about what I regard as some pretty hilarious discussions about whether the raisins, for example, in consecrated raisin bread are actually the Body of Christ or "accidents" without the presence. Sometimes I think Catholics (and Orthodox, for that matter) take the issue just a *bit* too seriously. Just be safe, and consume the raisins. As for the shampoo, wash your hair in a sacrarium and be done with it :-). -- Sincerely, Cindy Smith emory!dragon!cms
cathy@gargoyle.uchicago.edu (Cathy Johnston) (08/17/90)
In article <Aug.8.03.47.01.1990.12988@athos.rutgers.edu> cms@dragon.uucp writes: >Anyway, here's the joke: > > A seminarian was taking his final orals for ordination. The first examining >priest finished, walked out, and in came a much older priest, who threw a >hypothetical at him (this is supposedly a true story). > > "You're celebrating Mass," the old priest said. "You've finished the >consecration. Your hands are raised in prayer. Suddenly! A little mouse >scurries across the Altar, grabs the consecrated Host in its mouth, and >scurries away. What do you do?" > > Well, the young seminarian thought about it for a while and then replied: >"Well, I'd burn down the Church and throw the ashes in the sacrarium!" One day when I was in college a bunch of us were having lunch at the Catholic student center and got into an outrageous (and borderline blasphemous) discussion of distributing Communion... In the small Chapel where we had one of our Sunday Masses, we would have two Communion stations, one in the front and one in the back (actually out in the vestibule.) This particular autumn the bees had been much worse than usual, and occasionally they would fly in through the open doors and harass the congregation. One guy, a Benedictine brother, related that he had had a bee fly in and drown in the chalice he was distributing. There followed a spirited discussion of whether it was necessary to consume the bee, and if it was, who should be given this singular honor. And what if this hap- pened on a Friday in Lent? (As if there were bees in Chicago in March!) Allen (the Benedictine) listened silently for awhile, and finally remarked in his wonderful laconic Minnesotan down-to-earth-no-nonsense-Benedictine way that he had fished the bee out with the corner of the purificator and smashed it against the wall. And we'd been all set to write to the Vatican requesting an official opinion... :-) -- Cathy Johnston cathy@gargoyle.uchicago.edu Waiter, there's a fly in my soup!