hall@vice.ico.tek.com (Hal Lillywhite) (08/17/90)
[This is the 4th of Cindy's postings about LDS beliefs, (at least the 4th and last received here). Cindy, if I might make a comment, I think you have mixed 2 or 3 subjects here in a confusing manner. I will try to address them as coherently as I can but if I misunderstand you please let me know. hl] Cindy writes: > Originally, I posted this article on talk.religon.misc, however, in view of >the recent question about Mormon beliefs concerning the appearance of Jesus to >the ancient American Indians, I thought I'd repost it on s.r.c. Several more >articles follow. [or precede -- I got this one last, and it's hard to know >in what order you will see them --clh] >In article <5380@vice.ICO.TEK.COM>, hall@vice.ICO.TEK.COM (Hal Lillywhite) writes: > In article <336@caeco.UUCP> andre@caeco.UUCP (Andre' Hut) writes: > >>This is slightly understated. Brigham Young preached that Adam was God, >>and the LDS church held that as doctrine for nearly fifty years. > > As long as you are suggesting that we stick to facts, this > accusation is hardly established fact. Brigham Young is quoted as > saying something to that effect but the quote is in a book published > in England several years after he was alleged to have said it. The > book was based on notes someone took and Brigham Young (who was in > Utah at the time of publication) had no chance to review it for > accuracy. > > On the Mormon position of the Nature of God, I have here a list of quotations >from Mormon sources which I shall reproduce here so that people can people can >judge for themselves what Mormons believe on the basis of their own statements >about themselves: > >******* begin quote ******* > >1. "In the beginning, the head of the Gods called a council of the Gods; and >they came together and concocted a plan to crete the world and people it" >(Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p. 349). > >2. "God himself was once as we are now, and is an exalted man,..." (Teachings >of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p. 345). > >3. "The Father has a body of flesh and bones as tangible as man's: the Son >also; but the Holy Ghost has not a body of flesh and bones, but is a personage >of Spirit..." (Doctrines and Covenants 130:22). > >4. "Gods exist, and we had better strive to be prepared to be one with them" >(Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses, Vol. 7, p. 238). > >5. "As man is, God once was: as God is, man may become" (Prophet Lorenzo >Snow, quoted in Milton R. Hunter, The Gospel Through the Ages, pp. 105, 106). ... [Other quotes of a similar nature deleted for brevity. Cindy seems here to be trying to prove that LDS belief allows man to become a god. I think this point is not in dispute.] As to the idea that man can become something which can be called a god, I posted this on t.r.m, it's probably at the root of the discussion Cindy refers to. Can a man become something which can be called a god? Clearly scripture teaches that we should worship one and only one God. How then can anyone believe that man can become a god? I believe a good starting point is 1 Cor 8:5-6: For though there be that are called gods, whether in heaven or in earth, (as there be gods many and lords many,) but to us there is but on God, the Father, of whom are all things and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him. I think what Paul is saying here is: 1. There are many idols called gods 2. There are also many gods and lords (parenthetical phrase) 3. But to us there is only one God, that is the others have nothing to do with us, we are not talking about something you and I ought to worship. (This goes along with our belief that we have the possibility of becomming something which can be called gods but we will *always* be subordinate to God, our Father in Heaven.) I'm sure there are many other interpretations of this passage but I think this one is not only possible but reasonable. The Greek of course had no punctuation so the parenthesis were not there although I believe they do no real damage to the text and serve to emphasize the point that these real gods and lords are separate from the idols. Quite possibly Paul would have used parentheses had they been available to him. His comment here is rather cryptic, probably because he was addressing people who were already familiar with the subject. The idea that man could become a god was known in the ancient world as I have read in a paper by Karl W. Benz, a German scholar not a member of our church. It was published in the procedings of a conference held at BYU. The title of the paper was "Imago Dei, Man in the Image of God." The book is called _Reflections on Mormonism, Judeo-Christian Parallels_. Also check out Psalm 8:5 "Thou hast made [man] a little lower than the gods." I've taken the liberty here of using the word "gods" where the KJV at least uses "angels". My analytical concordance indicates that "gods" is the correct word. Now on to some Bibilical indications that we are potential gods. First consider Deut 10:17 "For the Lord your God is God of gods and Lord of lords..." (see also Joshua 22:22, Psalm 136:2). I think what the writers are saying here is that our God is God over other gods, the same ones Paul was talking about when he mentioned gods many and lords many. And who are these gods our God is over? Consider Psalm 82:6 I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most high. Jesus himself quotes this passage to defend himself when accused of blasphemy, John 10:34-36: ... Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods? If he called them gods unto whom the word of God came and the scripture cannot be broken; Say ye...thou blasphemest because I said I am the Son of God? Clearly Jesus is saying that it is not blasphemy for him to claim to be the son of God because all those who receive the word of God are gods (or at least potential gods). This was his defence against the blasphmy charge, essentially, "It's not blasphemy because we're all potential gods." I think this is what John was thinking of when he said we should become like [Jesus] (1 John 3:2). Also why we are commanded to become perfect as our Heavenly Father is perfect (Mat 5:48). The goal of the gospel of Jesus Christ is to make us into something which can be called gods. Not that anyone here will worship us, but that we can become like our Father in Heaven and His Son Jesus Christ. [end of previous t.r.m posting.] In the interest of keeping this to a reasonable length, I will split Cindy's posting here and respond to the rest in a separate article.