[soc.religion.christian] Genesis 3:14,15

bjstaff@uunet.uu.net (08/06/90)

Greetings:

I am reading the book _Catholicism_, George Brantl, Editor.  On page 74, he
discusses Catholic teaching on Mary.  He proceeds to quote Genesis 3:14,15,
applying it to Mary:

	And the Lord God said to the serpent:  ... I will put en-
	mities between thee and the woman, and thy seed and her
	seed:  she shall crush thy head and thou shalt lie in wait for
	her heel.

Note that it is a feminine person that crushes the serpent's head; that the
serpent lies in wait for the heel of a feminine person.  The NIV renders the
passage as follows:

	So the Lord God said to the serpent, ...

	"And I will put enmity
	    between you and the woman,
	    and between your offspring and hers;
	he will crush your head,
	    and you will strike his heel."

Note that this time it is a masculine person that crushes the serpent's head;
that the serpent lies in wait for the heel of a masculine person.

I went to _The Pocket Interlinear Old Testament_, Jay P. Green, Sr., General
Editor and Translator.  Green renders the passage as follows:

	And Jehovah God said
	to the serpent, ...

	And I will put enmity
	between you and the
	woman, and between your
	seed and her seed - He will
	bruise your head, and you
	shall bruise His heel.

As you can see, Green and the NIV are in agreement.  I am nearly ready to
conclude that Brantl is quoting from a "broken" translation.  Is there anyone
in net.land that is proficient enough in Hebrew to settle this issue for me?

Thanks,

Brad Staff
...uunet!zds-ux!bjstaff

ncramer@bbn.com (Nichael Cramer) (08/08/90)

zds-ux!bjstaff@uunet.uu.net writes:
>Greetings:
> (re: Genesis 3:14,15 and the genders used in various translations).
>As you can see, Green and the NIV are in agreement.  I am nearly ready to
>conclude that Brantl is quoting from a "broken" translation.  Is there anyone
>in net.land that is proficient enough in Hebrew to settle this issue for me?

Brad

Just to keep things interesting...   ;)

E. A. Speiser's translation in the Anchor Bible Series gives:

   " ... I will plant enmity between you and the woman,
    And between your offspring and hers;
    They shall strike at you head,
    And you shall strike at their heel."

In the accompanying textual note on the verse he writes:

  _offspring_ Heb. literally "seed", used normally in the collective sense
  of progeny.  The passage does not justify eschatological connotations. As
  [S. R. Driver] put it, "We must not read int the words more than they 
  contain."

NICHAEL  
nichael@bbn.com  --  Forward Quarter Guard and Captain, BBN Calvin Ball Team.

jhpb@granjon.garage.att.com (08/08/90)

Someone else mentioned this recently, in a batch of postings I lost
because of a vacation.

The translation into the feminine is critically not defendable,
according to some Catholic references that I've checked in the past.

The frequency with which you will see the feminine used in Catholic
works is due to the influence of the Vulgate.  The Vulgate translation
uses the feminine.

It is illustrative of the reason that the council of Trent chose the
Vulgate for the Church's standard Latin version of the Scriptures,
namely, that it is theologically sound.  Critically, it is not always
necessarily accurate, but theologically, it is a good version, as
guaranteed by its long usage in the West (the translation was made in
about 400 AD, and accepted sometime thereafter).

mwallace@vega.axion.bt.co.uk (malcolm wallace) (08/12/90)

In article <Aug.8.03.30.21.1990.12810@athos.rutgers.edu>,
jhpb@granjon.garage.att.com writes:
|> It is illustrative of the reason that the council of Trent chose the
|> Vulgate for the Church's standard Latin version of the Scriptures,
|> namely, that it is theologically sound.  Critically, it is not always
|> necessarily accurate, but theologically, it is a good version, as
|> guaranteed by its long usage in the West (the translation was made in
|> about 400 AD, and accepted sometime thereafter).

First officially accepted by the Roman Church at the Concil of Trent, 1536 AD.

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dhosek@mimir.claremont.edu (Hosek, Donald A.) (08/12/90)

In article <Aug.5.21.48.32.1990.18404@athos.rutgers.edu>, zds-ux!bjstaff@uunet.uu.net writes...
>I am reading the book _Catholicism_, George Brantl, Editor.  On page 74, he
>discusses Catholic teaching on Mary.  He proceeds to quote Genesis 3:14,15,
>applying it to Mary:

>	And the Lord God said to the serpent:  ... I will put en-
>	mities between thee and the woman, and thy seed and her
>	seed:  she shall crush thy head and thou shalt lie in wait for
>	her heel.

>Note that it is a feminine person that crushes the serpent's head; that the
>serpent lies in wait for the heel of a feminine person.  

A few more translations: KJV (Gideon Bible) It will crush thy
head, New Jerusalem, "It", New American "He" (footnote indicates
that they would be better).

So I check the Hebrew. It does say HU' which translates as "he"
or "it", sort of. Hebrew, like Spanish has only two genders and
when it uses a pronoun, the pronoun is the same gender as the
noun to which it refers. In this case, "seed" or "offspring" (I
didn't write down the Hebrew word although it was a compound of
BeN [son]). Because the word is masculine, the pronoun to be used
was HU'. I personally think that "it" is the best translation for
this passage; if I had the Septuagint and Vulgate handy, I'd
check those, but unfortunately, I don't.

-dh

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cms@dragon.uucp (08/17/90)

[There has been some discussion of Gen 3:15, which was originally
quoted as "she shall crush thy head".  All modern translations have
"he", "it", or imply a collective.  Since apparently "she" comes from
the Vulgate, Donald Hosek wondered what it said. --clh]

 Genesis 3:14 (Vulgate):

et ait Dominus Deus ad serpentem
quia fecisti hoc maledictus es inter
 omnia animantia et bestias terrae
super pectus tuum gradieris
et terram comedes cunctis diebus vitae tuae
inimicitias ponam inter te et mulierem
et semen tuum and semen illius
ipsa conteret caput tuum
et tu insidiaberis calcaneo eius

> Don Hosek                       TeX, LaTeX, and Metafont support, consulting 

-- 
Sincerely,
Cindy Smith
emory!dragon!cms       

rodvan@microsoft.UUCP (Rod VAN MECHELEN) (08/20/90)

Here is a thing I reckon ought to be of encouragement.

According to the STATISTICAL ABSTRACT OF THE US, 1989 edition of the
National Data Book, in 1987 (more recent stats are not available)
56 percent of Americans believe themselves to be Christians.

Setting aside debates over "professors" vs. "possessors," that means 
the majority of Americans have a predisposition to serve a Christian
agenda.

Food for thinking!
Rod

dhosek@hmcvax.claremont.edu (Hosek, Donald A.) (08/21/90)

In article <Aug.17.03.18.28.1990.7632@athos.rutgers.edu>, cms@dragon.uucp writes...
>[There has been some discussion of Gen 3:15, which was originally
>quoted as "she shall crush thy head".  All modern translations have
>"he", "it", or imply a collective.  Since apparently "she" comes from
>the Vulgate, Donald Hosek wondered what it said. --clh]

And now he knows (thanks, Cindy)

Looking at the key passage: 
>inimicitias ponam inter te et mulierem

I will put animosity between you and the woman

>et semen tuum and semen illius

and [between] your seed and her seed {I presume the "and" was an
inadvertent translation}

>ipsa conteret caput tuum

she will [something, I don't remember the word off-hand] your
head.

ipsa is most definitely an independent feminine. "semen" is, if I
remember correctly, masculine and ipsa might be used to refer
back to "mulier(em)" a few lines back, but it's unlikely.

Whoa.

Now I'll have to check the Septuagint and see what that says.

-dh

---
Don Hosek                       TeX, LaTeX, and Metafont support, consulting 
dhosek@ymir.claremont.edu       installation and production work. 
dhosek@ymir.bitnet              Free Estimates.
uunet!jarthur!ymir              Phone: 714-625-0147
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jhpb@granjon.garage.att.com (08/21/90)

I recently came across something on this subject.

A new edition of the Vulgate was begun some time ago, I think around the
WWI timeframe.  The Catholic encyclopedia has an article on the subject,
if I remember right.  They were examining manuscripts all over Europe in
an effort to determine more precisely what St. Jerome's original said.

The neo-vulgate was published a few years back, and one of the changes
was in the Genesis passage we're talking about; the feminine pronoun in
question was changed to masculine.

rjd4507@venus.tamu.edu (DEFRESE, RAYMOND JACK) (08/25/90)

In article <Aug.19.22.52.27.1990.16484@athos.rutgers.edu>, rodvan@microsoft.UUCP (Rod VAN MECHELEN) writes...
>Here is a thing I reckon ought to be of encouragement.
> 
>According to the STATISTICAL ABSTRACT OF THE US, 1989 edition of the
>National Data Book, in 1987 (more recent stats are not available)
>56 percent of Americans believe themselves to be Christians.

	I seem to remember seeing the results of a Gallup poll that
	said 95% of Americans believe in God (not necessarily the 
	Judeo-Christian God), 84% believed Jesus to be the Son of
	God and 25% considered themselves "evangelical" (of which
	I am one).  

>Setting aside debates over "professors" vs. "possessors," that means 
>the majority of Americans have a predisposition to serve a Christian
>agenda.

	Judging from the Gallup results, I'd say you're right.

> 
>Food for thinking!
>Rod

	Thanks for sharing, Rod!

Ray De Frese
Texas A&M University
E-MAIL: RJD4507@TAMVENUS

heksterb@apple.com (Ben Hekster) (08/27/90)

[rodvan@microsoft.UUCP (Rod VAN MECHELEN) and rjd4507@venus.tamu.edu
(DEFRESE, RAYMOND JACK) quoted various statisticals about American's
beliefs, ranging from 95% who believe in GOd to 25% who consider
themselves "evangelical". --clh]

However, I'd be much more interested to know what the >trend< is...

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